Endless power grind, thoughts

[techno 3,511]

 

 

I actually agree with a lot of what's been said here, and I know Lee that most games are the same thing over and over again. I like the idea of grinding once as the power level.rising every 3 months makes it pointless especially when it tracks. I have no reason to grind power,I think destiny has lost its way, @Diddumshit the nail on the head a while ago. I'm hoping things change for the better in September. 

[GazzaGarratt 11,056]

I actually agree with pretty much most of this @techno  Gary. I've said for a while that as the game evolves, the Power grind has become a secondary factor in as far as achieving goals go whereas in the first number of years, the big Power number was the ultimate goal. What people strive for is new content and i'd agree with them. We all want the best, endgame, brand new never seen before content over older, already completed content.

 

The one part in the detail of this that I struggle to side with though is that some people view literally dismiss any old content in the game like its not 'fun' any more or meaningless. Crucible, Strikes, Gambit, Dungeons, Raids, Menagerie, etc gets categorised into something really boring and the negative train sweeps over people. You'd find a ton of these modes actually really engaging compared to other games. The negativity then breeds to guns and armor. "Woopee, brand new content! A D1 Exotic". I'm sorry, but the people that argue they want more Destiny 1 things back moan when thats stuff is back thats it not new. Selective memory lapses happen all the time. They can't make a million guns each Season, but because there's not 100 guns brand new, they brand the entire season shite before trying out some of the 7-10 guns that are new and new activities that are on offer. And some are pretty crazy good.

 

All in all, I totally agree with Power grind issues. I never look at the numbers anymore, only when I need to see if i'm high enough for an activity, which I think a good way to combat it would totally be putting more Hard modes in the game. Clive @Teenwolf25  has said many times as well as Chad @Riff Machine  that make the Raids normal level accessible with unlimited revives and then Hard mode has limited revives at higher power levels. Match that reward and Bingo, stuff to grind for which works with getting higher numbers. Menagerie? Add a few extra bosses and levels. Reckoning? Add a few extra bosses and levels. Forges? Create different objectives to Rounds other than just throwing balls, like Niobe Labs has. Raids? Add new harder modes that have slight twist on each section.

 

If they do things like they do above, then I think the Power Grind as we know won't be an issue. You logon, you have stuff to do. You get rewards from that stuff, you do harder versions of the activies.

 

Oh, and yes it'll never be an MMO, i agree with that too. I don't want it to be. All I want is pretty much every activity to be able to have 6-8 people playing the same activity in the same Fireteam. How good would Patrol and other gamemodes be if they did this?! Personally, the reset to the world come September has me hyped because its kind of blowing up the stale world as we know it. I would much prefer it if every season they started to go back to old content and then work on improving and refreshing it. Good thread Gary. 👍

[techno 3,511]

I was forced to go back to menagerie this past weekend and as I hadn't done it for a while I really enjoyed it. I want to get away from doing stuff just to complete bounties, I still enjoy just running strikes to chill out however PvP really has gone to shit imo and does need some changes ( though I know these things are greatly affected by the community and the way they play )

[Diddums 4,346]

Destiny needs stats. I don't mean the current stats which are about as effective on your performance as the colour of your armour, I mean actual stats. In WoW for example, each class and role has its primary and secondary stats, and you can shuffle and fiddle till your heart's content. There are tons more stats which also affect your character, however this is more for flavour. As a tank, I stack defense rating to make me tougher, this is my primary stat. My secondary stat is stamina, which increases the size of my health pool, so when I take the big hits, I survive.

 

As a healer, I stack healing power as my primary stat and intellect as my secondary stat. More intellect, bigger mana pool, more heals before I run out. 

 

Swap these around however and you've just made both of these classes completely useless. There are thousands of items in the game which offer all manner of stats and although the drop rate is RNG, the place to get them isn't. Want that tanking 'at? Go farm BossyMcBossface in McDungeonland until you get it. You know what you need, you know what you want, and it gives the game a purpose. 

 

This also allows you to experiment and play with your gear. Fighting a boss with a short enrage timer? Go for max DPS. Fighting a boss that hits like a truck? Go for a larger health pool. 

 

Keep the weapons as they are, with the god rolls and random rolls, but maybe add some stats to them. As for armour, keep the blues as random stats like it currently is, but the legendary stuff? Give it fixed stats and give it a specific path to obtain it. Whether it be a questline, a certain strike or dungeon, raid, boss, whatever. 

 

This system could be implemented in the current game with almost no overhead, it's literally just a spreadsheet going on in the background. It would give all the quests, bounties, missions, strikes, etc all a purpose. You know what you want and you know what you need to do to get it. Goals.

 

As it currently stands the entire game is concentrated around the power stat which is fine, but as you've all seen, all they can do at the end of an expansion is increase the power level, moving the carrot a bit further away, creating a non-stop cycle of tedium and boringness. The other stats mean absolutely fuckall, in fact maxing out one stat at the cost of another in D2 amounts to having a different coloured lollipop in your mouth when you shoot people, that's how effective it is. 

 

The classes also need more of an identity. Every game with the holy trinity performs well, just look at WoW, and even Overwatch. It makes your class stand out and if you fail at your role, you fail the group, so it incentivizes you to max your gear out and be on your game. The classes at the moment are slightly different, but not different enough. Apart from their supers the only thing differentiating them is their appearance, their jump and which way they lob their grenade. Anyone who's been a warlock will know that the jump is just a pain in the ass and completely unnecessary. 

 

You could go a step further and restrict certain classes to certain weapons. For example all classes could use ARs, but only a Titan could use an LMG, and a warlock a shotgun. Only hunters can use sniper rifles, that sort of thing. 

 

The game as it currently stands is any class can do anything, and the crap you get is entirely RNG based which just makes you feel like your character is exactly the same as every other character in the game and the only thing differentiating you is RNG. Give classes a proper identity, remove or add some abilities to really give them flavour, make the stuff worth grinding for and the game will get a LOT more interesting overnight. It'll also go a long way to helping fix the PVP system as you can't simply have every class running around with a Mida Multi Tool. 

 

I'm not saying turn the game in to an MMO, far from it, but do something to make sure your character is your character. You want other people to see your stuff and go "oh shit, look at that 'at, he must've done the hardest raid on hard mode", not "oh he got lucky from an engram". 

 

 

[GazzaGarratt 11,056]

13 hours ago, techno said:

to go back to menagerie this past weekend and as I hadn't done it for a while I really enjoyed it. I want to get away from doing stuff just to complete bounties,

 

Yeah, totally with you on this Gaz. The good thing is they've acknowledged it has to change (heavy reliance on bounties) and it starts to change next season into more lifetime/one-off objective based rewards. I want to do activities first and bounties alongside them as a secondary non-essential feature.

 

51 minutes ago, Diddums said:

Destiny needs stats. I don't mean the current stats which are about as effective on your performance as the colour of your armour, I mean actual stats.

 

Thats spot on there. The current Discipline, Intellect, Strength, etc stats make some minor differences at end game stuff but i've never had to worry about them on 90% of the easily accessible stuff.

 

53 minutes ago, Diddums said:

The classes also need more of an identity. Every game with the holy trinity performs well, just look at WoW, and even Overwatch. It makes your class stand out and if you fail at your role, you fail the group, so it incentivizes you to max your gear out and be on your game. The classes at the moment are slightly different, but not different enough. Apart from their supers the only thing differentiating them is their appearance, their jump and which way they lob their grenade. Anyone who's been a warlock will know that the jump is just a pain in the ass and completely unnecessary. 

 

You could go a step further and restrict certain classes to certain weapons. For example all classes could use ARs, but only a Titan could use an LMG, and a warlock a shotgun. Only hunters can use sniper rifles, that sort of thing. 

 

In some instances this would totally work and in D1 we had one exotic per class (I'm looking at you, my favourite Fabian Strategy PvP AR ❤️) however this kind of goes against a fundamental principle that Bungie wants which is to give the gamer the ultimate choice on what you wanna play in any gamemode as over time they started to receive negative feedback that they were 'forcing' people to play all 3 classes if you wanted to get 'everything'. There is a number of activities where each class will be better than others already, and taking 3 Hunters into a hard activity like 3-man Menagerie, wouldn't struggle like hell without the Warlock healing bonuses.

 

On your theme though, I would love to see a brand new subclass all centered around different healing abilities to see if it would change up the meta. I think the brand new burn and subclass Stasis coming in September is a pretty big change to the overall sandbox so don't be surprised if that has stuff that dominates for a while.

1 hour ago, Diddums said:

You want other people to see your stuff and go "oh shit, look at that 'at, he must've done the hardest raid on hard mode", not "oh he got lucky from an engram". 

 

I know you haven't played in a while mate, but they are actually making activities with their own specific loot pools alot more often and I hope coming soon we get some 'Hard' mode loot that exists on new and current content.

[Diddums 4,346]

It's a step in the right direction, but it's still not worth it because any class can do the same and get the same stuff with the same results. It's pointless. 

 

A healing class would be awesome. Not a subclass, a whole new class with its own abilities and stuff. Think Mercy but with more firepower. Give it a mana pool and use Intellect as a stat, making its healing more powerful, and Discipline as a stat making its resources last longer, so it can heal longer. Restrict it to SMGs and scout rifles or something, but make it extremely strong at healing so it makes the difference between a raid completing or failing. Make the Titan a tank class. Give it Discipline as a stat to determine how long its shields last, give it strength as an actual melee damage stat, so punching shit draws aggro. Give bosses the ability to do massive damage dealing strikes, but then give the Titan the ability to punch the boss to get it to focus on the Titan, so he can soak the damage. This will give the healer something to do, and the DPS will have their windows in which to unload and zerg the fuck out of the boss. It creates actual boss mechanics that don't involve stuff like "stand here to achieve this", it makes the fights a lot more active and beating them will be a lot more rewarding. 

 

I don't feel needed in a raid in Destiny. I can die and the raid can be completed with the remaining people, no problem. It gives me no incentive to get better and I have no interest in gearing up or focusing on any stats apart from power because it's all irrelevant. Raiding, for me, is a chore in destiny. I have no idea what gear will drop and even if it does, I don't care because it'll have random crap on it which likely won't make a difference. 

 

Make me feel needed, make me feel like I have a shot of winning something which will make an actual, tangible difference to my character, and I'll start playing again. 

 

Destiny's problem is simple: it's trying to be all things to all people. There's a bit of FPS in there, a bit of RPG, a bit of loot pinata, but it's all just wishy washy crap. 

 

There's a reason WoW is so successful after 15 years still, it makes you feel like you're needed. The activities couldn't be done without you. In Destiny you can take 6 of the same class in to any raid and win. Makes no difference at all. In WoW I feel the pressure of having to perform. If I don't, the group wipes. Simple as that. It makes me want to learn my class, know the fights, know my role and my stats. It makes me want to optimize my class to the nth degree because that tiny little bit of extra stats could literally be the difference between winning or losing. And the rewards, whether they drop or not, are tailored towards my class. They have stats I want, and are useless to anyone else. They offer me the ability to make my class stronger so I can perform even better next time. 

 

I feel like a disposable character in Destiny, for me there are a billion others. A hunter can do my job, a warlock can do my job, we can all use the same weapons and wear the same armour. What's the point in being a Titan? 

 

The class abilities like shoulder charge are fucking ace, we all love them or hate being on the receiving end of them. That's what the game needs more of, not this flippy-floppy-you-all-get-a-piece-of-vanilla-candy stuff. 

 

Destiny needs balls. 

[GazzaGarratt 11,056]

Any normal standard content can be done by anyone, yep, but its definitely a different story at higher level, endgame content.

On 7/1/2020 at 10:46 AM, Diddums said:

I don't feel needed in a raid in Destiny. I can die and the raid can be completed with the remaining people, no problem.

 

I 100% agree with you if this was still Destiny 1. Or maybe Destiny 2, Year 1. The raids are completely different to just shooting everything and standing on plates. Mechanics and enemies do mean that most raid teams need 6 in every raid. We've only just started to 5 man one of them but even then everything has to be spot on at the boss.

 

From what you've pointed out I think highlights for me a big issue between player skill and casual to hardcore players. Imo, more than 70% of all activities are accessible by everyone because that was one of the key things that the entire playerbase asked for was to play with their friends no matter the Power level. Problem for me though is theres no gradual increase in understanding what you need to get from a stats POV for the endgame harder content - thats when actually all of the stuff about stats, mods, and type of Guardian with subclass matters. And that 30% most of the community have barely even tried because as much as people ask for that type of content they either find that they struggle with those activities because of skill level and they usually don't want to bother understanding the next level of detail that is evolving in Destiny right now. Even me as a core player, struggles with the Artefact (where the key mods are) but mainly because i don't push myself to understand it. If i did, I know i'd be more successful and confident in taking on multiple raids, Prestige/hard raids, 3-man mengerie, solo-ing Dungeons, even solo-ing Bad Juju mission i'm not good enough because i haven't looked into the mod system and armour stats enough.

 

At higher levels, for bigger groups the game has got way harder than D1 and that for some is ironically a turn off when its exactly what they asked for after D1 because of how easy Crota's End or VoG raids became. I think @crispymorgan  could give a bit of insight into it a little more that the game has created more depth but it has a crap way of telling you what has changed. If they had a system which told you in clearer terms how powerful mods and different abilities could work together then that would bring more casual/core players into the game more regularly.

[FallenDark200 168]

@Diddums im gonna come up and say i totally disagree on that but I get what your saying. I played D1 and its was sorta the first of its kind. I had not touched D2 until recently and being new to it I can understand where everything feels fresh but im sure several people can say this as well and @GazzaGarratt. I put a lot of time into last season and I have almost every pinacle and exotic other then maybe 1 or 2. So I see your point on the stuff being the same but to be fair the balance between all characters has been the same since D1 sure some have advantages over others but it all depends on how you play them. I was a titan main D1 now im a warlock main and I play all three characters quite regularly now. I can say there a lot more advantages of being certain classes. You cant go in a run a raid with a six man of hunters and expect it to go well on boss damage phase unless your running class specific gear. The healing on a warlock is amazing but no one uses it other then in raids for harder content where it should be expected. They are changing the way game is done up but they will never be a wOw style game. Its own mess of fun. I think people who don't enjoy the game don't enjoy the style of fps with random rolls and stats because the same can be said about borderlands they all have perks and abilities but what does everyone do they go for the most op guns and load out there is no diversity. Now from soloing a lot of stuff a lot last season I can say that even if you dont enjoy destiny in a hole it does feel good to complete a raid or activity with your lads. Hell back on the topic of fps and stuff warzone is so simular as well to fornite with the seasonal shit so i mean i think it honestly depends if the game is your cup of tea. I know i love finding random awesome Armour rolls for stats because that allows me to actually play with my abilities regen rates or how I survive in a certain game style. Like your not going to go into crucible iron banner or trails with a raid gear load out thats for sure same goes vise versa your not gonna run your pvp load out in regular open world play or in certain activities. I just opened myself up a little bit this season to run more hardcore pvp and I couldn't figure out why I was doing ok. Well talking to some people I found out it was my build. If your not optimizing your builds even just trying to use the right stats or loadout of course everyrhing is going to feel slow clunky or just down right not fun. Also the joy of seeing a raid exotic drop is an awesome feeling and there are plenty of people in the clan who still dont have specific raid drops or Armour but they are changing the game in a way that it will be able to last longer and hopefully grow into something better. They are moving away from a lot of the normality In the game to something bigger like they are getting rid of the bounty grind and i think they are planing on working on the power grind as well because it gets old. I know a lot of people hate the grind but thats apart of the game. Same can be said with borderlands you litterally load into a boss map blast him in like 5 secs to see if you get your drop and after 50 times of doing it you might get it if not then try again. Like I said from earlier I think the game is styled towards a lot of people but not for everyone. All id like to see is older players come back and give it a shot with some of us new players and let us maybe let some of that old destiny shine come back to you all because destiny in reality is more than a game its a community and its very big. I love the game but it has its flaws like other games as well but which one doesn't but this game did bring me close to what I call you guys as family and I really hope to see some of the older members on and if so give me a shout join a party join up we can do whatever love yall thank you.

[crispymorgan 1,056]

Lots of wordy responses. I'll go with a simpler version. There's loads to do. Loads. If you haven't played for at least 6 months you'll be drowning in content. You can do raids, dungeons, pits, whatever. Lots of side quests and stuff to do. I've been kicking around with Alex and his school mates, it's been a hoot. Lots of fun weapons, the stats go pretty deep when you settle on your favourite armour.

Via the FG App

[Teenwolf25 327]

Diddums diddums diddums what have I just had to read 😂

 

You haven’t played D2 in a long time, I can tell. Armour now has completely changed, they have split it into 6 stat roles.

mobility

resilience 

recovery 

discipline for grenades

intellect for your super

strength for melee

 

The stats above are basically what you’ve just described as what the game needs.

If you’re fighting a tanky boss you’ll opt for high stats in something like resilience and intellect. 
For PVP perhaps you’ll want mobility, recovery and intellect. 
 

There are so many builds you can make. Theres multiple ways to get high stat specific roles to drop and yes some are grindy, some are fun. I’ve found the old Levi raids like Spire and EOW drop high roles for PVP builds. Menagerie is brilliant for specific armours and roles as you can direct the chalice to a specific build. The choices are endless.

 

I can’t defend the bounty grind as that is what it is, a bounty grind. 
 

You’ve said about raids being too easy and if you die people can just carry on and complete stuff without you. I disagree with that totally. 

I can’t remember ever completing a raid with only 5men with you guys before...... 

Imagine every raid encounter being so mechanic heavy that if one person dies it’s a wipe etc. People would be moaning then that they’re too hard. How would new people be able to learn it?? You have to be sensible about it. There should be times where when someone dies the other 5 can carry for a bit. It just makes it harder for the others. Also there’s not a better feeling when youve spent hours grinding a loadout and armour etc found yourself another couple of good players and decided complete loadouts from subclasses to armour stats and armour mods and then gone and completed a raid.... 3man 

 

The activities are there.

The armours there.

The stats are there. 
The armour mods and weapon mods are all there too. 
 

If you don’t enjoy the game anymore that’s absolutely fine but you can’t say they lack stats etc when it’s all there for you to customise your own specific builds. 
 

 

 

[Diddums 4,346]

So what you guys are saying is that I need to delete everything and start again? 

 

I could be convinced. 

 

Might do that tonight actually. 

[Goner 31]

It is literally only in the game so you can't play new content instantly, but gradually. New content is gate-locked behind power grind, so you have to grind the same old activities to be able to play the new stuff. It is a design flaw and not how this game should continue in the future. If you ask me at least. I hate it. Yet here we are, all addicted and we'll keep doing it. And Bungie won't settle on a power level cap ever. It is what keeps selling the seasons.. hell even in the seasons you don't get to play all new stuff instantly, but they release it several weeks apart, like exotic quests etc.. it sucks.

[FallenDark200 168]

To be fair the grind will always be there yes its apart of destiny culture 💯 but i think being in there with a squad or your mates and slamming stuff around is just amazing. Sure you can do that on a lot of games but like i said the game isn't for everyone. Also id like to take the time and say this as well id like to go and try more games as well on ps4 that your all playing i know a lot of you have been playing the hunt. 

[GazzaGarratt 11,056]

The power grind / progressive gameplay element to get rewards is a key part of an RPG and an MMO game, sometime i cba to grind power but i get that if I want to play certain activities there's some steps to take and at least it has multiple gamemodes that you can do it whichever way you like. I think as time going by in the world, the culture is changing.

 

I think we also forget a Power grind also gives you subconsciously gives you a chance to try out new guns that drop, rather than always upgrade your existing ones. I always found it strange the remark when people would say 'just let me use the guns I want to!' and after using the same 3 weapons all the time then say 'I need more guns to use, these ones are boring'.

 

@Godspeed  sometimes we all get a little fed up of grinding, its at those points we all need to remember this isn't the only game out there. Its just happens at different times to different people. This game isn't made to be played solely all the time and that isn't good for anyone (I can vouch for that as how annoying my son is by playing Fortnite all the god damn time and nothing else). Whats great is there's so much choice you can go and come back to it and have lots to do, but if you don't want to go away, there's still lots to do. Oh, and the season pass isn't sold on the Power level, the cost of it they see is based on how much they offer via the Season Pass levels. When you break down the armour, bright dust, emotes, ornaments they give you on top of the other activities available to do in the Season. £8/$10 ain't that bad versus other models out there in other games. Plus, its not mandatory to buy it. You can always miss out on when you need to.