Mick Lynch

[phil bottle 9,761]

Mick has been handing every single media organisation and politician their arses this week. I wonder how they'll retaliate.

 

Not going to talk about the strike, as anyone who's against working class people standing up for themselves is a prick as far as I'm concerned 🙂

 

 

[Luseth 1,957]

I think he's been brilliant, if only the labour party could put him in charge rather than Starmer! (That's my only political comment).

 

But yeah it's nice to see someone being a little more straight talking on tv for a change.

[crispymorgan 1,056]

Love the way he lets rip on them once they've got their speech out of the way.  

[Diddums 4,346]

On 6/23/2022 at 10:08 AM, phil bottle said:

Not going to talk about the strike

 

Ok, I will then. Well, not this strike in particular but the way that the English strike in general. You know why the Dutch never strike, or when they do it never lasts more than a day or two? Because when they go on strike they still go to work, uniform and all, and just open everything. The Dutch love it, I remember people queuing for Eurostars to all over Europe, trips that could cost 200 euros, for nothing. All the barriers opened up, go wherever you want free of charge for the duration of the strike. That's why the top dogs listen, because strikes cost them an absolute fucktonne of money. Sadly it's the only language those people speak, things like quality of life and human rights mean fuck all to them, but when money is involved they fall over each other to come to resolutions. 

[phil bottle 9,761]

11 hours ago, Diddums said:

 

Sadly it's the only language those people speak, things like quality of life and human rights mean fuck all to them, but when money is involved they fall over each other to come to resolutions. 

 

Very true.

 

In this country though it was made illegal for strikers to remain on premises, among a host of curbs brought in, mostly by Thatcher.

This country used to have a proud tradition union-wise but she effectively killed them in the 80s. Plus non stop media vilification of unions turned a lot of the country against their own best interests. They called it the 'English disease'. Pure propaganda pitting working against working people while the fat cats at the top rake in the profits.

 

[techno 3,511]

I've been on holiday this past week, the week before I was actually balloted for strike action, so back to work tomorrow to see if I've got my rise or if I'm going on strike anytime soon🙄😁 oh and I've noticed like with us it's unite.

Also unlike Phil from what I read, mostly on social media, people seem more pissed at how it affects them and how much people earn than working class folks sticking up for themselves.

 

One thing to add, at the last vote I voted to accept the deal as it is imo the best deal I've ever been offered but I can see why it's just not there for some.

[Luseth 1,957]

14 hours ago, techno said:

Also unlike Phil from what I read, mostly on social media, people seem more pissed at how it affects them and how much people earn than working class folks sticking up for themselves.

 

 

It might be interesting to see what forms of social media you both use?

 

On Tik Tok for example I have seen much more pro striker and on twitter (which is predominantly an older audiences) it's much more against the strikes.

 

We are a split nation and it's absurd that there are working class people against the idea of working class people asking for more money, how does that make sense?

[techno 3,511]

1 hour ago, Luseth said:

 

It might be interesting to see what forms of social media you both use?

 

On Tik Tok for example I have seen much more pro striker and on twitter (which is predominantly an older audiences) it's much more against the strikes.

 

We are a split nation and it's absurd that there are working class people against the idea of working class people asking for more money, how does that make sense?

Twitter and Facebook, I have to say it's more of a local Facebook group that "need busses" but I do see posts on twitter basically " here's x train driver telling us how he can't survive on 70k" or some similar crap. People always seem to focus on one thing... The money. 

 

[J4MES OX4D 10,035]

It's a very delicate situation but at the end of the day, the UK rail employees are paid more on average than most countries in Europe yet we have a pretty below average rail service to offer despite heaps of investment and jobs created. Funny how the Olympics and HS2 seem to be disregarded. Not only that, this industry was heavily supported during Covid and most jobs were retained unlike some global Aircraft carriers. This strike caused a devastating impact on the environment, local businesses, other industry sectors, the emergency services and a huge inconvenience to other people. It's amazing how in over 30 years, Unions have never pressed for executive sector caps even with Labour were in power. 

 

Mick Lynch who pockets about £130,000 a year and £3,000 an hour for public appearances talks a good game but he's nothing more than a PR salesman who knows how to strike when the iron is hot.  Most social media activity that are in favour of the strikes is typically from activist-oriented people and students that don't have a job or aren't inconvenienced by such things. Certainly platforms with a lower age demographic like TikTok and Insta peddle such opinions and many in society just agrees with social media because they can't think for themselves or are easily swayed by views or likes. Older or working people who may not have the time or even use such platforms may not have their voices heard but the figures don't lie on the impact these strikes had over a matter of just days. 

 

The cost of living in some Cities is just way too expensive and that's down to the market. Also the focus should be on reducing inflation (a global issue right now) and living costs. Spending more money will just have a negative impact down the line such as significant job cuts or prices rises. Stability is way more realistic. Barristers have gone on strike today because they don't like the fact their earning potential is less than plumbers - thus being a very arrogant stance but hardly surprising with such a knee-jerk move. Parts of the NHS probably are more deserving of a pay rise especially with Covid but even then, there's no magical money tree. 

 

Only way this can be rectified is if the Unions take a lead and make realistic strategic demands instead of taking the ransom and hide route. It may make them more obsolete in the long run but they'd forever be known as heroic but these sporadic strikes that are nothing more than a cash grab on blackmail do not demonstrate any forwarding logic or benefit and will harm their sectors down the line. 

[phil bottle 9,761]

That's aoad of old cobblers James, I'll look at each of your points and reply when I have some free moments 👍

[phil bottle 9,761]

 

The impacts of the strikes
The whole point of a strike is that it has an impact, it would be pretty redundant as a tool for leverage otherwise, no? The idea is that if the company is making massive profits and paying its leaders massive salaries it should be sensible and reach an agreement with its employees via the union before any strikes are required. Government hubris and ideology made this impossible because they are dealing with a very well organised union that represents its members very well.

 

Unions taking a lead
The Labour party was formed from the union movement to represent the working person's interests. Unions have a function in terms of collective bargaining for their workers, it's a bit of a stretch to expect them to act in any other way. They have their congress and their influence on Labour but that's it.  Personally I prefer anarcho-syndicalisnm which is a different type of union, similar to those found in Sweden.
 
What the UK rail employees earn relative to other people
The have decent earnings because they have a good union. It doesn't matter what they earn, the industry makes massive profits. Have you checked what the CEOs earn? I don't see you making the case for spreading the profits to the people that do the work. No, let them take the burden and the blame for the economy. That's a cop out our government loves to hear. I find it a weak argument and more of a personal attack to elicit jealousy from the weak minded and selfish.

 

Barristers going on strike
I hope the whole country goes on strike because things are fucked up and they are going to get worse, particularly for those at the bottom of the pyramid. We have a lying, corrupt government that feathers it's own nest. Grant Schapps and his multiple alter egos did fuck all for the P&O workers, what happened there? All they want to do is keep changing the law so no-one can do anything. Our rights to protest and demonstrate were recently eroded in law with barely a whimper from any of the free speech brigade.

 

Mick Lynch and how much he earns.
Yeah, earning more money than the workforce that employs him I don't personally agree with. There's a lot about the structure of unions I disagree with but here's the thing.
So what? What has his wages got to with the strike? Absolutely nothing. It's simply a personal attack which has nothing to do with the strike, and we all know that when people are using personal attacks it's because they don't really have an argument.

As a side-note, It's illegal to blacklist people in this country, he was blacklisted from the construction industry for his work as a shop steward and he makes no secret of it.

 

Cash grab / blackmail 
That's tabloid language  right there, the politicians and fat cats love to hear working people speak for them.
Did you know that a big chunk of the money the government put into the rail industry during the pandemic ended up in off shore bank accounts? The railway employees worked during the pandemic but they didn't see any of that money.
If the nurses don't get fair pay is that the railway workers fault or the government?

 

Essentially it's the government that we have elected that has manufactured this and we should be speaking more about the people in power and holding them to account. Union activity, and there will be more of it, is simply a symptom of a country where too many things are upside down, a country where people in work still have to claim benefits, as they don't get paid enough to live on. Where the rich made a fortune out of the pandemic and the government helped itself and its mates. So, while I could write an essay on my criticisms of unions, it's not them that have created the mess we are in and it's not on them to be responsible for it.

 

I hope some of that makes sense 🤪

 

[Luseth 1,957]

Just to provide a little more to the rail strikes discussion and mostly I agree with what @phil bottle has said -

 

- Last year train companies paid out a total of £800 million to shareholders and then moments later told employees they won't be able to give them a pay rise in line with inflation

- The pay is for every member of the transport union that this affects. This isn't just train drivers on higher salaries but this will likely include cleaners and the such who are likely on a much lesser if not already minimum wage. 

- In addition to making all of that money for their shareholders last year, they now plan to make a load of redundancies, the union is a counter to that by trying to protect all jobs within the industry

 

Yes the cost of living is going up, but you only have to compare with other nations of a similar ilk to see that ours is going up a heck of a lot faster than most (if not all), the reasons why are mostly for another discussion but the simple fact is that our government is not doing anything to combat it because it benefits them. I use the price of fuel as a prime example, there is plenty of tax in there and fuel duty that could be cut, but because the price has gone up they are making more money in that VAT is applied to the whole cost as a percentage and not a fixed amount like fuel duty.

 

If there aren't general strikes at some point this year with the way things are going then either the government have had a lucky break or the British people are too far gone to help anymore. The country has been divided and conquered by our elite and we really need to break out of it.

[J4MES OX4D 10,035]

Strikes are an outdated mechanism IMO which is why the UK is so backwards and hasn't evolved from the 1980's in this respect. Causing major inconvenience that harms many sectors including children and people in need of medical assistance is not the answer. When the strike is over, everything goes back to normal and in most cases, nothing is resolved or gained. Unions need to be more creative these days rather than making knee-jerk statements that last a few days. They have been pressed to broaden their negotiations including supporting a pay rise to inflation scaling model yet most have refused to do this because it will ultimately make them irrelevant in the long run. 

 

Rail profits do soar but so does investment and that doesn't mean employees are automatically entitled to raises. A lot of the growth seen has been down to a near £100bn investment in the infrastructure and in creating over 40,000 new jobs. People biting the hand that feeds them whilst already receiving way above average salaries and overtime prospects is a bit greedy and narrow-minded. HS2 alone has probably revitalised and secured the industry for the next 60 years. The government now may be the punching bag for everyone's issues but Labour really haven't shone in the spotlight now or in any of their terms especially during the recession of around 2008 and nor has the unions. 

 

There needs to be a grounded focus on reducing inflation first and foremost which would reduce the cost of living significantly. This was not an issue when inflation was stabled/leveled so a lot of frustrations are because of that ultimately but people are using other means to shift blame. Certainly it is appropriate in some cases where there are sectors that are ridiculously overpaid but as per usual, hypocrisy comes in to play - how many people who complain about such things go on to support Premier League football and how many shop at Amazon? Labour were the OG's to not want to cap high earners because of their taxing potential.

 

So I reiterate that it's a very complex situation and it goes beyond what's happening right now. TikTok may want to blame the government for anything and everything but this is something that's always existed but it's just more apparent now with inflation. Outdated unions need replacing with proper industrial bodies with local points of contact because it's clear they have no scope or any original forwarding strategies. Right now there are just fat cats taking a lion share and piping up when the country is at its most vulnerable. They should be seen as a functioning supporting body every single day and not go into hibernation for 5 years when the money is rolling in and everything is hunky dory. 

[phil bottle 9,761]

I haven't got much to add to what I've said already. Strikes are very effective, and that's where you're quite wrong. Just take a look at France. The government decided to make the retirement age higher and the whole country said 'fuck that' and now the retirement age stays the same. I could give you hundreds of examples. Just look at the most successful countries in Europe, they all have the highest rates of union membership, particularly Scandinavian countries. 

 

But I'll leave it there, as long-serving forumers will know that as far as I'm concerned how we as a society organise ourselves economically and politically is not fit for purpose and actively creates misery and crime.

 

Also, trying to make a point saying people who blame the government are stupid is not an argument. I don't use Tik Tok but I do have a politics degree👊

 

 

[J4MES OX4D 10,035]

45 minutes ago, Luseth said:

- Last year train companies paid out a total of £800 million to shareholders and then moments later told employees they won't be able to give them a pay rise in line with inflation

Shareholders invest heavily in infrastructure especially in the rail network - those flashy new trains, fuel, track upkeep, maintenance and technical investments don't pay for themselves. People risking their own money want their dividends and some form of return. Any money left over is then wholly reinvested i.e new stations, staff and further development as well as ongoing salaries.

 

If you invested £10,000 in your corner shop to buy new fridges, an advanced ePOS system sourcing new products from alternate suppliers, you wouldn't expect your money including any profit margin to suddenly be absorbed to pay staff a pay rise who are paid above the retail average. 

 

There's a generalised stereotypical negative view of shareholders in this country but people don't realise their impact from transport advancements, innovative technologies and more importantly job creation. They may make a lot of money each year from their dividend but that doesn't mean it's a profit or their money back entirely. Some HS2 investors wont see their money back they invested 10 years ago until the 2040's. 

[Luseth 1,957]

34 minutes ago, J4MES OX4D said:

Shareholders invest heavily in infrastructure especially in the rail network - those flashy new trains, fuel, track upkeep, maintenance and technical investments don't pay for themselves. People risking their own money want their dividends and some form of return. Any money left over is then wholly reinvested i.e new stations, staff and further development as well as ongoing salaries.

 

If you invested £10,000 in your corner shop to buy new fridges, an advanced ePOS system sourcing new products from alternate suppliers, you wouldn't expect your money including any profit margin to suddenly be absorbed to pay staff a pay rise who are paid above the retail average. 

 

There's a generalised stereotypical negative view of shareholders in this country but people don't realise their impact from transport advancements, innovative technologies and more importantly job creation. They may make a lot of money each year from their dividend but that doesn't mean it's a profit or their money back entirely. Some HS2 investors wont see their money back they invested 10 years ago until the 2040's. 

 

I'm not really going to go too in depth but a lot of the above is not true or relevant and shows a lack of understanding of our railway system, feel free to correct me if I am wrong on any of the below but to convince me I would need to see some tangible evidence (I will leave it with you to look into more depth if you want a deeper understanding or you can choose not to) -

 

- Shareholders in the railway industry do not invest in the rail network and infrastructure. Our privately owned railway companies run, own / lease and manage the trains. The government run and maintain our railways, railway stations etc and invest the most into our network - https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/2036/rail-industry-finance-uk-statistical-release-2020-21.pdf

But to point out, the issues we typically have with our railway network don't stem from the state of the tracks or the stations that are owned by the government, typically it's because trains don't run on time or the service is incredibly poor etc that are privately owned.

 

- Yes if you invested in your corner shop you would want to see a return / uplift in profit. However where a shop differs is that as a customer I can choose to go to a different shop. I can choose to go to the one with lower prices that has not had any investment or I can choose to go to the shop that has invested and pay the higher prices. If I go to my local railway station to go to my local city, I have one train company that I can use and it goes one route. There is only the option for me to choose what time I go and that affects the prices I pay. So the returns that train company is going to get are as close to a gaurantee as you can get judging the running of that train service over the several years prior.

 

- There is a negative view but it is largely justified. Yes investment by private companies have led to some advances i.e. smart phones but they are all for the benefit of the wealthy to make more money. Those advancements have not been made to make life better or easier, it's purely profit driven, the benefits that have come about are purely happy coincidences.

 

- HS2 is publicly funded - https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/high-speed-two-limited

Any investment in HS2 has not been directly in HS2, it has been in businesses that stand to gain from the building and creation of HS2. It is down to a gamble by those who have the wealth in the first place. Yes there are investors who stand not to gain anything from HS2 for 40 years but they are also people who won't struggle to eat or live in a house or clothe themselves if it doesn't pay off....

But that is the key point isn't it, you only get rich people investing in these schemes that then stand to get richer, there is a saying that if you have money you can make more money or if you give a poor person a pound, then they need to spend that pound to eat. If you give a rich person a pound they don't need that pound so can put it towards making more money.

 

I am going to leave it there, I find that getting drawn into these discussions tend to find that neither party will budge from their views these days because as a nation we have been encouraged to disagree, wedges have been driven and everyone always has to be right. I hope that gives you food for thought.

[crispymorgan 1,056]

Privatise the profit, nationalise the pain.  It's that simple.  As long as Rich people are skimming off the top, there will always be higher fares and worse conditions.