Alec Baldwin Shooting

[J4MES OX4D 10,033]

Tragedy! 

Alec Baldwin fatally shoots woman with prop gun on movie set

WWW.BBC.CO.UK

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A man is also being treated in hospital after the firearm was discharged on set in New Mexico.

 

[Antpool84 1,109]

This is awful! Definitely something you never want to happen to anyone. It sounds eerily similar to waht happened to Brandon Lee on the set of the Crow with a dummy gun

[Drifter 851]

Saw this last night and a couple things immediately came to mind.

I guess it was the director that was shot?....which begs the question, why was he pointing a gun (prop or not) at someone that was not even in the film acting? Sounds like maybe he was playing around with the prop gun perhaps? And secondly, do any of these people in Hollywood ever get any sort of safety training in firearms at all??  Having had firearms/CPL classes myself I can tell you that the very first two things they instill into your head is #1 trigger discipline and #2 Never point a gun (real/fake/prop or not) at anything you are not ready to destroy.

[RenFengge 1,039]

So, I think the misunderstanding is that people think they use "fake guns" all the time. But, they don't.

 

They actually use real guns with blanks.

 

Actors aren't responsible for loading the gun. All the responsibility is on the prop master. The prop master manages all the guns and loads them. Shows the actors how to use the guns. Verifies all the safety stuff too.

 

However, lots of people forget or don't know how "blanks" work. Just because there's no tip, doesn't mean a shard remnant from a blank doesn't always remain in the barrel, and that's what might have been "shot out".

 

Are there fake guns, sure. Are the ones that they shoot fake? Not really.

 

And, there's the random fact from my very random life experience on this.

[Drifter 851]

Yup prop guns that fire blanks blanks are basically just a brass shell with some powder but no projectile in a real gun in most cases. Which can still be dangerous at close range even if there is nothing stuck in the barrel. I remember back in the 80's that one actor, damn what was his name, Eric something I think? He jokingly put the gun with a blank to his head and pulled the trigger and died.

 

This case with Alec Baldwin is just weird imo though. Because not only was the one person killed, but a 2nd person was injured as well. So begs the question of how could he have shot two people with a gun that was firing blanks. Also odd is that the movie is an 1800's western, so you know with that theme it had to be a revolver (most likely single action)  so he had to have cocked & pulled the trigger twice most likely to hit two people. The whole thing just seems weird to me and will be interesting to find out what actually happened there.

[LordBaguette 840]

8 minutes ago, Drifter said:

Yup prop guns that fire blanks blanks are basically just a brass shell with some powder but no projectile in a real gun in most cases. Which can still be dangerous at close range even if there is nothing stuck in the barrel. I remember back in the 80's that one actor, damn what was his name, Eric something I think? He jokingly put the gun with a blank to his head and pulled the trigger and died.

 

This case with Alec Baldwin is just weird imo though. Because not only was the one person killed, but a 2nd person was injured as well. So begs the question of how could he have shot two people with a gun that was firing blanks. Also odd is that the movie is an 1800's western, so you know with that theme it had to be a revolver (most likely single action)  so he had to have cocked & pulled the trigger twice most likely to hit two people. The whole thing just seems weird to me and will be interesting to find out what actually happened there.

I agree, a lot more will come out over the coming weeks over what really happened

[J4MES OX4D 10,033]

32 minutes ago, Drifter said:

Yup prop guns that fire blanks blanks are basically just a brass shell with some powder but no projectile in a real gun in most cases. Which can still be dangerous at close range even if there is nothing stuck in the barrel. I remember back in the 80's that one actor, damn what was his name, Eric something I think? He jokingly put the gun with a blank to his head and pulled the trigger and died.

I saw a video online many years ago which showed a blank being fired into a block of ice and it did more damage from close range than a real bullet did in the same test. Really surprised me!

 

34 minutes ago, Drifter said:

This case with Alec Baldwin is just weird imo though. Because not only was the one person killed, but a 2nd person was injured as well. So begs the question of how could he have shot two people with a gun that was firing blanks. Also odd is that the movie is an 1800's western, so you know with that theme it had to be a revolver (most likely single action)  so he had to have cocked & pulled the trigger twice most likely to hit two people. The whole thing just seems weird to me and will be interesting to find out what actually happened there.

I can only assume it was shrapnel or the bullet projectile went through the poor lady into the director - doesn't seem like he was badly injured but it will be very interesting to see how this whole thing happened. 

 

It's crazy to think that will all these advances in technology from CGI to on-set equipment, they are still relying on real guns and blanks for the effects. Surely dummy guns could be produced with some blast effects that could have extra audio and visual post-processing in editing!? I do love the authenticity of the guns in action movies but it's not worth it if safety is compromised and there being a chance of injury or worse. 

[Drifter 851]

26 minutes ago, J4MES OX4D said:

Surely dummy guns could be produced with some blast effects that could have extra audio and visual post-processing in editing!?

 

There actually are some that do that, that was why I included fake guns in a previous post. I can't remember what movie it was, but not that long ago I was watching one of those "how its made/behind the scenes" typs shows and they were using fake guns that were non functioning, then they used special effects in post production to add the muzzle flash and sound. Damnit now it's gonna drive me nuts tryin to think of what movie that was 😖 I remember it was a pretty popular recent movie too but can't recall what one right now.

[Drifter 851]

Okay, well lol... I didn't want to post/reply to this again till I heard more about this, now I am gonna.

I have heard a lot about this over the past couple days, here's my take on it.

First off, I like Alec as and actor, but hate him as a person. His politics are 180 from mine, and he's done stuff in his past that is just wrong imo, but with that said....

From what I read, he's blaming the prop guy for handing him a "hot gun". He says he did not know it was loaded, he thought it was a prop gun.

As a very active 2nd amendment / gun enthusiast/owner. Let me say a few things about that.

 

First off, Hollywood people love to blame the gun, not the person pulling the trigger, that's BS.

Why do I blame Alec? Here's why. He is trying to hide behind "someone handed me a hot gun"...well, first off, hot/cold gun is a Hollywood term, not a real term amongst firearm owners like myself, secondly, and this is the biggest thing. When someone hands you a firearm, you "CLEAR IT" no matter who/where you are. That's rule #1 as a responsible gun owner/user. I've owned guns for over 30 yrs, yet just like this year when I bought a new Glock 48 and another handgun, I went to the shop, I know guns in the case aren't loaded to start with, and I also watched the guy behind the counter check to make sure it was not loaded before he handed it to me. Yet what did I do when he handed it to me? I cleared it, i.e- I dropped the mag to make sure no ammo was in it, and I racked the slide back to make sure there was nothing in the chamber. That's just good gun owner ship 101 IMO. That's what I learned even before I took my CPL class. That's the most basic of gun ownership. 10 seconds of responsible gun ownership could have saved that woman's life on that movie set. That's all I will say about that. We'll see how this all plays out for Alec. I honestly don't feel he meant for it to happen. but was just such a lack of basic gun saftey imo.

[Diddums 4,346]

I don't blame Alec, regardless of what I think of him. He's been acting for over 30 years and has never had any problems, so why would he expect to suddenly have a problem now? He's clearly not had any firearms training and is unlikely to be a gun owner so whilst "clearing the gun" might make logical sense to you, it won't for him. As far as he was concerned, he was handed a prop and told to fire it, so he did, to a very unexpected and tragic result. 

 

This really is one of those cases where this could've been avoided in many ways, however ultimately it falls on whoever's responsible for the health and safety on the set, as well as the managers. The prop guy should've been trained in the use of live firearms if they were using them, or the managers should've hired a competent company to handle these weapons for them. 

 

Ultimately this hasn't happened in decades so the risk of injury was considered so small that it probably wasn't even considered. There was no malice here, this was an honest-to-god accident with disastrous consequences and I feel bad for all involved as they were probably doing what they've been doing for years and on this one occasion it killed someone, and they now have to live with it. 

 

This isn't a case of finding someone to blame, this is a case of putting measures in place to prevent it happening again, and then blaming them when it goes wrong. 

 

 

[J4MES OX4D 10,033]

6 hours ago, Drifter said:

Okay, well lol... I didn't want to post/reply to this again till I heard more about this, now I am gonna.

I have heard a lot about this over the past couple days, here's my take on it.

First off, I like Alec as and actor, but hate him as a person. His politics are 180 from mine, and he's done stuff in his past that is just wrong imo, but with that said....

From what I read, he's blaming the prop guy for handing him a "hot gun". He says he did not know it was loaded, he thought it was a prop gun.

As a very active 2nd amendment / gun enthusiast/owner. Let me say a few things about that.

 

First off, Hollywood people love to blame the gun, not the person pulling the trigger, that's BS.

Why do I blame Alec? Here's why. He is trying to hide behind "someone handed me a hot gun"...well, first off, hot/cold gun is a Hollywood term, not a real term amongst firearm owners like myself, secondly, and this is the biggest thing. When someone hands you a firearm, you "CLEAR IT" no matter who/where you are. That's rule #1 as a responsible gun owner/user. I've owned guns for over 30 yrs, yet just like this year when I bought a new Glock 48 and another handgun, I went to the shop, I know guns in the case aren't loaded to start with, and I also watched the guy behind the counter check to make sure it was not loaded before he handed it to me. Yet what did I do when he handed it to me? I cleared it, i.e- I dropped the mag to make sure no ammo was in it, and I racked the slide back to make sure there was nothing in the chamber. That's just good gun owner ship 101 IMO. That's what I learned even before I took my CPL class. That's the most basic of gun ownership. 10 seconds of responsible gun ownership could have saved that woman's life on that movie set. That's all I will say about that. We'll see how this all plays out for Alec. I honestly don't feel he meant for it to happen. but was just such a lack of basic gun saftey imo.

From what I understand, Alec was also a producer on the film and it sounds like the entire production was in total disarray with people walking off the set in protest of working conditions and a very non-confident junior doing the prop handling.  People have criticised the likes of Tom Cruise for his strict approach in a producer capacity on the Mission Impossible films but the difference is absolutely night and day in terms of safety and execution especially with M:I being of blockbuster proportions. This should be the standard regardless of budget and everyone involved should be fully trained whether actor or even fringe staff. Alec Baldwin has worked in a few of those films and some other actions titles so he should have the experience to know how it works yet this one sounded like a complete low-budget catastrophe. 

 

However I don't blame him for the shooting but as an actor with his experience, I would not have been comfortable participating in the filming under the circumstances described at the time.  Gun was declared safe by the junior armorer and the assistant director and Baldwin was then instructed to fire into a camera where at least two people were standing behind. People were missing doing their usually protests for social media brownie points and it was clear there weren't any safety protocols in place.  It's a tragic and avoidable accident stemming from several negligence factors. I don't know if there is a sole entity to blame but it's a prime example of how not to do things especially in the lower-ends of this industry. 

[J4MES OX4D 10,033]

New information has come to light today:-

 

- A 'enormous' amount of live ammunition and blanks were discovered on set and mixed up

- The armorer struggled to tell the difference between live ammunition and blanks

- The armorer has also been subject of several complaints previous including firing a gun without notice on set and giving an unchecked pistol to an 11 year old child

- Assistant director blindly took weapon off cart outside assuming it was safe with no communication with the armorer

- 5 days before the shooting, a stunt double fired two live rounds after being told the gun had no ammunition - there were 3 accidental discharges recorded prior to the shooting

- Cast members spent some downtime firing at cans in the desert presumably with the 3 weapons being used in the film

 

Criminal charges are not being ruled out either. I think this will remain and health and safety issue with civil resolutions though. 

 

[BO7H B4RRELS 2,453]

The "armorer."  

[Drifter 851]

On 10/26/2021 at 9:27 AM, J4MES OX4D said:

However I don't blame him for the shooting but as an actor with his experience, I would not have been comfortable participating in the filming under the circumstances described at the time.  Gun was declared safe by the junior armorer and the assistant director and Baldwin was then instructed to fire into a camera where at least two people were standing behind. People were missing doing their usually protests for social media brownie points and it was clear there weren't any safety protocols in place.

 

I understand why you would say that, but as someone that is very much into firearms, I have to disagree with you. It boils down to rule #1 when you pick up a gun. Check it first yourself, never take anyone's word that it is unloaded, or in his case, that it has blanks in it. Would have taken him less than 20 seconds to open the cylinder and make sure with his own eyes that it was loaded with blanks and not live ammo and she would still be alive.

 

With that said, yes, I agree there needs to be charges on other people as well after Alec. The fact that they are saying there was live ammo on set is just mind boggling. There should under no circumstances be live rounds anywhere on the set of any movie. That's an accident just waiting to happen. Sounds like you could not swing a stick on that film set without hitting a negligent person lol

 

14 hours ago, BO7H B4RRELS said:

The "armorer."  

 

Don't ya love how they call them an armorer Tommy lol. Did you see the pic of this "Armorer"? She's some 24yr girl that I guess caused issues on a Nice Cage film set as well when she was firing guns without warning. I'd like to know exactly what qualifications it takes to be an amorer out in Hollyweird...not much from the looks of it.

[Diddums 4,346]

4 hours ago, Drifter said:

I understand why you would say that, but as someone that is very much into firearms, I have to disagree with you. It boils down to rule #1 when you pick up a gun. Check it first yourself, never take anyone's word that it is unloaded, or in his case, that it has blanks in it.

 

No, sorry Steve, but you can't expect someone who's never had any training to know this kind of thing. It might be second nature to you, but as you say you're very much a gun fan. I suspect a Hollywood actor could tell you more about the viscosity of a cappuccino than he could about guns, and will likely have only fired live weapons a few times in his life. The studio obviously knows this, which is why they hired an armourer to handle the firearms. That's a whole different conversation however with its own set of questions, but the point is that whilst Baldwin could've very reasonably prevented this from happening, expecting him to do so without adequate training or exposure to firearms isn't realistic at all. 

 

 

[J4MES OX4D 10,033]

8 hours ago, Drifter said:

 

I understand why you would say that, but as someone that is very much into firearms, I have to disagree with you. It boils down to rule #1 when you pick up a gun. Check it first yourself, never take anyone's word that it is unloaded, or in his case, that it has blanks in it. Would have taken him less than 20 seconds to open the cylinder and make sure with his own eyes that it was loaded with blanks and not live ammo and she would still be alive.

My understanding is that the responsibility is solely on the prop master in situations like this and the burden is not placed on the presumably untrained actor. If this is the standard procedure for movies then it's been very successful previous as this type of incident is almost unheard of and there has been thousands of films from amateur to blockbuster that haven't had such issues. Not sure why the assistant director handled the gun either. Baldwin probably has questions to answer from a producer standpoint but I can't see fault attributed to gun handling with the compulsory safety framework in place. Only if he was instructed and agreed to check weapons prior to usage will fault be assumed in this regard IMO but he very well may burn if corners were cut and things were ignored from his producer role. 

 

I try not to judge people on appearance but the armorer doesn't exactly look professional and from what I've read of the statements, her behaviour is far from it either. Firing guns on set without warning, giving child an unchecked gun and even admitting that she isn't up to the job prior in a podcast.

She wont be trusted to run a lemonade stand now. Sounds like she only got the gig in the industry as her daddio was an established actor. 

[Drifter 851]

9 hours ago, Diddums said:

No, sorry Steve, but you can't expect someone who's never had any training to know this kind of thing. It might be second nature to you, but as you say you're very much a gun fan. I suspect a Hollywood actor could tell you more about the viscosity of a cappuccino than he could about guns, and will likely have only fired live weapons a few times in his life. The studio obviously knows this, which is why they hired an armourer to handle the firearms. That's a whole different conversation however with its own set of questions, but the point is that whilst Baldwin could've very reasonably prevented this from happening, expecting him to do so without adequate training or exposure to firearms isn't realistic at all. 

 

 Dave, you are actually making my point for me.

You can not say that someone can't be responsible to know basic gun safety, if they are handling a gun. Actor or not, if you choose to pick up a gun even for a movie, then it is 100% your responsibility to properly know how to be safe with it. We are not talking about in depth knowledge of how to take apart and clean/use/reassemble etc etc. We are talking about less than 1 minute of knowing three things when you are handed a gun which even the most non-gun person in the world can find out easily. They are, check it, know your target and whats beyond it, and always assume it is loaded. 

Saying because he's an actor excuses him from knowing how to safely use it is not valid.

No different than saying... "well I'm not responsible for killing that woman in a car crash because I have never driven before". If you choose to get behind the wheel of a car, then you have to know the basic rules of the road. Just as with any Judge when you go before him in court will tell you, saying you didn't know does not excuse the results of your dangerous action. i.e-  ignorance of the law doesn't work as a defense.

 

Again I can understand why you would feel that way, but the truth is, saying he is excused from responsibility just does not fly. He choose to use a gun for a movie, so it is his responsibility to known the most basic of safety or else he should not even use it. They are currently saying there may be multiple charges on multiple people after the investigation, and rightfully so. But most likely just like any time a high profile person has something like this happen. His part will be swept under the rug and he won't face any charges I would bet. Yet if it were you or I or any other Joe off the street, we'd be facing 5 yrs in prison for manslaughter.

 

Also part of the different view on this may come from us being from two different countries. Here in the US we have over 400 million guns in private citizens hands, guns are almost a way of life for most people here so that basic knowledge is expected here if you touch a gun. Might not be the same over there or other places were they aren't such a big part of life.

[Diddums 4,346]

1 hour ago, Drifter said:

if you choose to pick up a gun even for a movie

 

He didn't pick up a gun though, did he? He picked up a prop. The fact it was an actual gun is irrelevant, he was told it was dead and would not fire any live rounds. You may say "it's basic stuff here in the US" to which I present to you some fellow Americans, how many of these people do you think would know how to handle a firearm?

 

 

 

 

(Ok, Red would definitely know how to handle a gun and was probably barred from having one for risk of shooting one of these dumbasses, but still). 

 

Like I said, just because you and the people you hang out with know how to handle a gun, doesn't make it common practice. I'd imagine that the vast majority of Hollywooders, New Yorkers, and all the other metropolitan darling people wouldn't have a clue how to handle a firearm. Couple this with the fact that the company has literally paid someone to make sure it's safe, you'd expect it to be safe, no?

 

Clearly not. Perhaps my impression of the USA is wrong and Americans all know how to handle guns but that's certainly what American TV wants us to believe. The press on the other hand wants us to think you're all a bunch of murderous psychopaths who shoot up schools for lols. Neither of these is true obviously, but I think it's far from unreasonable to expect an actor (note: not a lumberjack or a hunter or an engineer or anything "manly", an actor. Someone who's had their every beck and call taken care of for the last 30 years) to now know how to handle a gun.

 

If he did know how to handle a gun, then the "armourer" (lol) wouldn't have been necessary.

 

Either way it's irrelevant. This conversation will go round and round in circles for the next month with you refusing to see it my way and me refusing to see it your way until we get bored, move on, and have the same discussion when Macauley Culkin's grandson shoots Miley Cyrus's cyborg grand-daughter in the fanny in about 40 years and end up bickering about it in rocking chairs. 

[Drifter 851]

Callin it a "prop" is absolutely ridiculous , it was a real gun, just because it is used in a movie does not take away that fact and make it a prop then. Its a real gun that is deadly in the wrong hands.

Don't assume anything about America and how we are from Hollywood/TV. All of Hollyweird is filled with the most ignorant agenda driven people that are so out of touch with reality it's insane. They don't represent the average American trust me!

 

Its not just "me" that feels that way. Its basic knowledge for any item that is dangerous. You don't pick up something that can easily kill someone unless you know how to safely use it. Common sense, that simple.

We will not agree on this so no need to go any further, good conversation, but starting to go round in circles. I've said my piece which is how most people here feel about it from what I have read/seen. We'll see how it all plays out.

I'm done 😉

[Diddums 4,346]

58 minutes ago, Drifter said:

They don't represent the average American trust me!

 

I know Steve, I'm not an idiot (on Thursdays). That was my whole point, everyone portrays things differently, whether it be the Holloywood crowd or the bloodsuckers in the media 😉

 

See you in 40 years, make sure you oil your rocking chair, I don't wanna hafta turn my hearing aid off when we're bickering again. 

[Drifter 851]

I actually did just get done oiling something.... it wasn't a rocking chair though 😁

 

Range day tomorrow with my Niece's husband.

 

 

[J4MES OX4D 10,033]

Well Alec Baldwin apparently claimed that the gun fired by itself in an interview shortly before he and his wife both departed Twitter. This claim has been disproved and it's put him in quite a bad light especially as he said he didn't feel guilty and tried to shift all responsibility. He's dug quite an unnecessary hole by the look of things and this was through his own strategic exclusive sympathy-garnering interviews

 

[J4MES OX4D 10,033]

Alec Baldwin to be charged for fatal Rust shooting - BBC News

WWW.BBC.CO.UK

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A crew member will also be charged with involuntary manslaughter over the death of Halyna Hutchins.