Microsoft Sack 10,000 Employees

[J4MES OX4D 10,041]

Yet they have about $100bn+ worth of acquisitions on the table? 343 have been massively affected with 'hundreds' sacked. The Halo franchise is at rock bottom plus their 10 year Infinite that had a $500m budget is dead in the water after less than a year but this is a catastrophic and persistent failure of management and other personnel at the top-end of the company yet the workers are the ones who get the boot. This has been going on for years. Not only that, MS also plague their internal studios and divisions with outsourced contracted staff who usually only have 18 months on the books so they aren't exactly motivated to bolster the company or the products within. 

 

If they weren't throwing piles and piles of money around to try and beat Sony and had a forwarding vision post-pandemic, they wouldn't be in such a poor stagnant situation where thousands of innocent people are affected. Give it a couple of years and in-house developers will also get cut off and they will  likely say what a tragic deal the Game Pass has been for them and how other companies made much less than if they sold standalone. 

 

The old Microsoft is really coming back to the fore and can see them shafting much more down the line. 

[Tar-Eruntalion 511]

We have recession, inflation, a game pass that has been operating at loss from what I have read, a gaming console that hasn't had a massive system seller since the 360 days and a new version of its OS that has abysmal adoption partly because it has many problems and partly because they have locked out of upgrading to it a sizeable portion of pc people because they have to buy a new system in the midst of the aforementioned recession and inflation and with many parts still having crypto boom/scalper prices

 

most people won't just throw to the rubbish their perfectly fine pcs because microsoft said so

 

and because of all this, I am not surprised that they have to lay off people, it's sad that common workers pay again for the incompetence of the higher ups but it is what it is

[Luseth 1,967]

I feel like you guys have misread whats going on, everything suggests this has very little to do with xbox.

 

A lot of those job losses are due to rapid expansion during the pandemic, a few of the tech companies did the same and they all benefitted from the pandemic. 
 

Now things have returned to normal and costs going up there is less of a need for a lot of those employed at the time. Imagine how many new windows laptops were bought so workers could work from home, servers upgraded or companies moving everything to the cloud during the pandemic.

 

In fact the xbox is the only major console to have increased its sales on the year before last year i.e 2022 sales higher than 2021 and in October just gone Phil Spencer did state that game pass was profitable (he did not say by how much though).

 

 

[J4MES OX4D 10,041]

8 hours ago, Luseth said:

I feel like you guys have misread whats going on, everything suggests this has very little to do with xbox.

 

A lot of those job losses are due to rapid expansion during the pandemic, a few of the tech companies did the same and they all benefitted from the pandemic. 
 

Now things have returned to normal and costs going up there is less of a need for a lot of those employed at the time. Imagine how many new windows laptops were bought so workers could work from home, servers upgraded or companies moving everything to the cloud during the pandemic.

 

In fact the xbox is the only major console to have increased its sales on the year before last year i.e 2022 sales higher than 2021 and in October just gone Phil Spencer did state that game pass was profitable (he did not say by how much though).

I'm not saying its all to do with Xbox - it's Microsoft as a whole but this has impacted the Xbox Division because they've literally obliterated their one and only major first party studio which they've haven't bought. 343 has been a prime example of shocking management and then innocent employees being the scapegoat and this has spanned a decade. I also don't buy into the pandemic excuse - this is something corporations use to mass offload staff without walking into unfair dismissal claims. Most companies would recruit staff with forward consideration and then allocate them elsewhere in time rather than pull the plug entirely to save money. It's not like Microsoft made sweeping hires during the pandemic period either so it sounds like a cop-out in a bid to rid them with justification to satisfy public opinion. Like Google and Meta, Microsoft also have many failed, neglected or abandoned projects and staff pay the price for those too even if it down to mismanagement once again. Companies like that will never own up to failures of their own doing especially Google who have cut tens of projects over the years. 

 

The game pass makes good money for Microsoft but not for the developers. Their in-house studios aren't immediately affected because they belong to Microsoft anyway but others are seeing their margins reduced to pennies per install for going down this route the same way developers have experienced with the Epic Games Store. It's a great deal for the consumers and an easy way for Microsoft to catch up to Sony by using their own studios as collateral for flogging the consoles but in time, I think developers will grow demotivated playing second fiddle to Xbox's rapid growth plan when success is determined purely on installs and can't be adequately measured by want or impulse. 

 

It just goes to show that no matter how long you've been there, what job you do or how much money the company can make, your job is not always safe especially if the hands of a characterless corporation. Game Pass certainly wont be sustainable throughout especially at its current price and management will always escape (sometimes with bonuses) for failures of their own merit where others have to suffer, sometimes very talented and experienced staff. 

[cyberninja2601 1,106]

4 hours ago, J4MES OX4D said:

I'm not saying its all to do with Xbox - it's Microsoft as a whole but this has impacted the Xbox Division because they've literally obliterated their one and only major first party studio which they've haven't bought. 343 has been a prime example of shocking management and then innocent employees being the scapegoat and this has spanned a decade. I also don't buy into the pandemic excuse - this is something corporations use to mass offload staff without walking into unfair dismissal claims. Most companies would recruit staff with forward consideration and then allocate them elsewhere in time rather than pull the plug entirely to save money. It's not like Microsoft made sweeping hires during the pandemic period either so it sounds like a cop-out in a bid to rid them with justification to satisfy public opinion. Like Google and Meta, Microsoft also have many failed, neglected or abandoned projects and staff pay the price for those too even if it down to mismanagement once again. Companies like that will never own up to failures of their own doing especially Google who have cut tens of projects over the years. 

 

The game pass makes good money for Microsoft but not for the developers. Their in-house studios aren't immediately affected because they belong to Microsoft anyway but others are seeing their margins reduced to pennies per install for going down this route the same way developers have experienced with the Epic Games Store. It's a great deal for the consumers and an easy way for Microsoft to catch up to Sony by using their own studios as collateral for flogging the consoles but in time, I think developers will grow demotivated playing second fiddle to Xbox's rapid growth plan when success is determined purely on installs and can't be adequately measured by want or impulse. 

 

It just goes to show that no matter how long you've been there, what job you do or how much money the company can make, your job is not always safe especially if the hands of a characterless corporation. Game Pass certainly wont be sustainable throughout especially at its current price and management will always escape (sometimes with bonuses) for failures of their own merit where others have to suffer, sometimes very talented and experienced staff. 

 

 

Where did you see that any of the layoffs have anything to do with Gaming? I've seen no such indication. The announcements I have seen are pretty generic 

 

All the major tech companies are laying off.  Part of the problem was that Exec management were spending like druken sailors and hiring anything with a pulse. The pay packages people were getting to jump ship were simply insane. Engineers where getting $340K to switch jobs at Apple, amazon, google, intel, Facebook, MS, Netflix. The packages were much better than employees that were there so that cause those people to jump ship too. g So now things have slowed down and they realize of shit our costs are way to high. We need to get them under control. The numbers are quite high but the majority of companies are in the 5% range.

 

It always the employees who suffer but I have been in tech long enough to know that this is something you have to plan for as it happens all the time. I've been laid off 3 times over my career. Intel being one of them and they hired me back 8 years later.  Shit happens in this industry

 

the worse part is all the H1B visas in the USA. Those people now have 60 days to find another job or they have to go back to their countries. Some have been in the country 15 years and are raising families there but those are the conditions for those visas. Given the current situation most probably cannot be hired in time.

[GazzaGarratt 11,062]

I'm not quite sure who is responsible for the decisions or how they've come about but I do think they've got an element of gaming in them as you don't just relieve tons of developers on games that are being actively supported and have a good multi-year longevity to them. Halo Infinite, to use the example that has been impacted by redundancies, is likely not to have the same live service roadmap that something like Fortnite or Destiny has - and I can only imagine that is because the top dogs somewhere along the line have seen the projections and how its performing and think they have to go in a different direction.

 

I follow a lot of developers on Twitter and you can see that its nice that at least the competition has been offering people to come and apply in the hope that these guys and girls won't be out of a job for long.

[J4MES OX4D 10,041]

5 hours ago, cyberninja2601 said:

Where did you see that any of the layoffs have anything to do with Gaming? I've seen no such indication. The announcements I have seen are pretty generic 

I've followed this story for days and they certainly haven't been generic - 343 have had around 60 front line developers culled which puts the entire future of Halo into doubt. Some of the names that have departed are massive especially Joe Staten. This is Microsoft's flagship first party studio too

https://metro.co.uk/2023/01/19/xbox-bethesda-hit-by-microsoft-layoffs-as-halo-campaign-team-gutted-18128386/

 

5 hours ago, GazzaGarratt said:

 Halo Infinite, to use the example that has been impacted by redundancies, is likely not to have the same live service roadmap

 

Halo had the biggest budget in gaming history and a 10 year roadmap set in stone. 

 

[cyberninja2601 1,106]

54 minutes ago, J4MES OX4D said:

I've followed this story for days and they certainly haven't been generic - 343 have had around 60 front line developers culled which puts the entire future of Halo into doubt. Some of the names that have departed are massive especially Joe Staten. This is Microsoft's flagship first party studio too

https://metro.co.uk/2023/01/19/xbox-bethesda-hit-by-microsoft-layoffs-as-halo-campaign-team-gutted-18128386/

 

 

Halo had the biggest budget in gaming history and a 10 year roadmap set in stone. 

 

 

 

60 people out of 10000 is pretty minuscule. They probably expect the Activision merger to go forward and these people are a victim of that. 

 

I read that azure, sales and Marketing were hit hard. 

[J4MES OX4D 10,041]

31 minutes ago, cyberninja2601 said:

 

 

60 people out of 10000 is pretty minuscule. They probably expect the Activision merger to go forward and these people are a victim of that. 

 

I read that azure, sales and Marketing were hit hard. 

60 for 343 is huge. Nobody is saying that 10,000 equates to Xbox entirely or their gaming division as a whole, but this level of layoffs in their first party gaming sector is significant especially considering the personnel that's departed and how it will affect Halo going forward. As it stands, it's the biggest layoff of an active studio in gaming history.  If Activision came out tomorrow and said that MW2 performed so badly during the first 3 months, we're going to be sacking every developer involved at Infinity Ward; that in itself would cause a huge shock to the industry and for people that follow Halo and have supported 343 in the last 13 years, that's the impact this announcement has had. Unlike Call of Duty, they have no other studios to fall back on to carry the series forward so the brand's future is in serious doubt on a game that had a 10 year plan.

 

There is also a massive sense of injustice from people affected, that most of the management associated with the project remain and are also sitting on huge bonuses. 

[cyberninja2601 1,106]

3 hours ago, J4MES OX4D said:

 

 

There is also a massive sense of injustice from people affected, that most of the management associated with the project remain and are also sitting on huge bonuses. 

 

that's always the case. They probably got a bonus for reducing cost.  

 

However if Halo disappeared would it be a big deal to gamers. On steam they average the 30 day average is less than 5000. Comparatively Warzone is 120000, witcher 3 is 43000, Skyrim 27000.  An 11 year old game is has about 600% more players. 

 

So if I am running a business and I am microsoft I wouldn't sweat closing down something that generates 5000 players a month and I would put my money into candy crush or fruit ninja. 

 

Sucks for those 60 people but with those numbers MS probably didn't think about it for more that 10 seconds. 

[Luseth 1,967]

6 hours ago, J4MES OX4D said:

I've followed this story for days and they certainly haven't been generic - 343 have had around 60 front line developers culled which puts the entire future of Halo into doubt. Some of the names that have departed are massive especially Joe Staten. This is Microsoft's flagship first party studio too

https://metro.co.uk/2023/01/19/xbox-bethesda-hit-by-microsoft-layoffs-as-halo-campaign-team-gutted-18128386/

 

 

Halo had the biggest budget in gaming history and a 10 year roadmap set in stone. 

 

Fair enough it states some people at the developers but 60 people out of 450, that does not paint a clear picture in that are they all people working on the game itself? Are they writers that are no longer required or the cleaners to the offices? Also 60 out of 10,000 people is a very small fraction. It is not quite an obliteration as you stated and its also not the ‘hundreds’ you said in your first post.
 

I feel like you are giving Microsoft a hard time there for something most of the big companies in the tech sector are currently doing.

 

I agree Halo did not do well but you only have to consider that halo has been released now. What are the odds that all 450 employees are currently required whilst the next game is decided on?

 

The other factor to this, Halo is not a series that appeals to younger audiences anymore. The majority of games that grew up with Halo now have families and such so wouldn't be able to give it the time and the younger generations prefer your fortnites, warzones etc. It is a much tougher and more competitive market than it was back on the og xbox and 360 xbox and that is out of the managements control. 
 

Where I would say they have fallen down is not trying to innovate and continuing to stick with the og halo formula.

 

As with everything in an economy on the downturn people lose jobs, efficiencies are made (rightly or wrongly) and that is going to be the case across every industry.

 

The job losses are not solely down to poor management and I would also argue these days the halo studio is no longer their flagship. Most of their recent displays have been based aroung Bethesda or based around Starfield, it doesnt really feel like Halo is their flagship game anymore (I would argue they don’t have one)

[cyberninja2601 1,106]

On 1/20/2023 at 7:29 AM, J4MES OX4D said:

If they weren't throwing piles and piles of money around to try and beat Sony and had a forwarding vision post-pandemic, they wouldn't be in such a poor stagnant situation where thousands of innocent people are affected.

 

I agree with @Luseth  When you say stuff like "thousands of innocent people" and the number is 60 is hard to be credible in the rest of the argument

[J4MES OX4D 10,041]

6 hours ago, cyberninja2601 said:

 

I agree with @Luseth  When you say stuff like "thousands of innocent people" and the number is 60 is hard to be credible in the rest of the argument

It's not just 60 - that was a single example because you said you hadn't seen anything of it related to gaming (despite it being the biggest lay off of a first party studio ever and it being widely covered in the mass media all week) 

 

7 hours ago, Luseth said:

Fair enough it states some people at the developers but 60 people out of 450, that does not paint a clear picture in that are they all people working on the game itself? Are they writers that are no longer required or the cleaners to the offices? Also 60 out of 10,000 people is a very small fraction. It is not quite an obliteration as you stated and its also not the ‘hundreds’ you said in your first post.

 

No, as already said, these are main-line developers - literally their entire development portfolio including the main project lead who was transferred back to Xbox Gaming. That's why it's caused such a ripple and put the entire future of the brand into doubt because they literally have no recognised devs left with a project that has 9 years left to run. 10k is just the headline - once again I am not attributing this all to gaming.

 

With no many failed parts of the business and outdated aspects, mass-layoffs were bound to happen but it's just crazy to see them obliterate their only in-house studio instead of allocate them elsewhere especially when they have over $100bn invested in grabbing external companies so they don't sell their products on Playstation.  Could've easily merged them into a new studio or elsewhere and that's one good thing about Activision - no matter how shite their studios perform, their staff will always be allocated to projects and have work available. That is the main point - not whether a few hundred from a call centre or Kinect got the boot. Microsoft have always needed first party games so for them to kill their only in-house team overnight is quite a big move especially if they will use any small savings as partial collateral to complete the AB merger to capture another tiny indie studio to stifle on the Game Pass.