Auto Rifles after yesterdays patch

[Sennex 1,903]

Worthless now.

 

I need to test them in PVP still, but I am fairly certain they will suck there as well.

 

I was testing my fully maxed out, Vendor purchased, Vanquisher 7. Diddums and I did a ton of Roc's last night and I kept swapping between Thorn, and the Vanquisher. Thorn's range was noticably shorter, but it was easier to compensate for it.

 

The Vanquisher was doing around 500 points of damage at range against level 30 vex in the Divisive Mind mission.

In CQB I was doing around 600 when hitting the crit spot.

 

Not joking, I literally hit one of the Precursor Minotaurs for 1 point of damage from the bottom of the ramp with it at the midpoint where the shield spawns (The section that is all precursors that spawn in waves) 1 damn point of damage with its shields totally down.

 

From reading on Reddit and Bungies site, it looks like all the high Impact AR's took a 15% hit across the board to stats. 

 

Meanwhile Thorn(Not maxed), Polite Denial(Not maxed), Hawkmoon(Fully Maxed), and my other Hand Cannon were all hitting at 1200+ against the same level mobs when at Range, and 1500-1700 in CQB.

[L_C_Scipio 395]

I used Monte Carlo for the weekly heroic last night and didn't notice a difference.

[Sennex 1,903]

Monte Carlo is an 88/8 Auto Rifle.

 

The Range was shortened, however the Impact wasn't lowered by much, I think its a 6 now. Need to research that.

 

The 77/28 AR's were what was hardest hit.

 

A decent post that sums this up:

 

 

In the light of the most recent update meant to improve destiny's PvP, I decided to write a post about the state of the weapons and perceived "balance"- specifically, what the developers are actually intending to do.

 

First, I'll introduce myself as to lend some credibility to the nature of this post. I've played the game since alpha all the way through the beta and from day one onwards. Since PvP is where my gaming passion lies, I play destiny quite consistently, and have fared pretty well.

http://destinytracker.com/destiny/crucible/ps/PS_TRUDODYR

I'm top 5% in overall score, kills, KDR and numerous other areas. I also use all three classes in PvP, although I usually switch between hunter and warlock. I use a lot of different weapons, although no longer auto rifles.

 

Auto Rifles.

 

We all know that in destiny there are three main classes of auto rifles- and that one of these, in particular, has caused much grief and brought the nerf hammer down hard on the class as a whole.

 

100 ROF/ 2 Impact: Atheon's Epilogue, The Nechrochasm, payback sOs.

88 ROF/ 8 Impact: Shingen, Up for Anything, For the People, Do Gooder V, Hard light, Monte Carlo, Abyss Defiant.

77 ROF/ 28 Impact: Suros Regime, Vanquisher VIII, Grim Citizen III, Shadow Price, Galahad-E.

 

If you have played destiny for very long and use Auto rifles, you know that the 77/28 class produces the best auto rifles in the game. And because of perceived inbalances we have seen all 3 subclasses nerfed twice.

 

Shadow Price: Before patch was 27/22 damage. After patch: 23/18.

Suros Regime: Before: 37/30. After? An abysmal 32 critical. This weapon has now seen a huge overall nerf since the game came out. To put this in perspective, pre patch Red Death did 32 critical per hit. Suros, Which has a much slower fire rate, is now at a slower kill time than pre patch red death was... and that weapon, like all other pulse rifles, received almost a 10% damage buff. And this isn't even going into how useless most auto rifles are in PvE now.

The kill times and damage for the other ARs is even worse. I can understand wanting to improve weapon diversity, but you don't achieve this by nerfing an entire class right into the ground.

I'd love to see the most recent weapon stats from Iron banner 5.0. And when IB 6 comes out, I want you to watch how nonexistent auto rifles are. If we are talking balance, why do snipers still have "final round" perk?

 

[BO7H B4RRELS 2,453]

In the last 2 weeks, I've gotten 4 new auto rifles I was looking forward to leveling up. Hmmmm....

[Sennex 1,903]

In the last 2 weeks, I've gotten 4 new auto rifles I was looking forward to leveling up. Hmmmm....

Yea, I feel ya there.

I guess I shouldn't have sharded that Pulse Rifle the other day.

[techno 3,510]

I was leveling abyss defiant today and noticed no difference.

Don't really use auto rifles in PvE most of time anyway it's usually scout rifles and hand cannons.

I've seen some YouTube videos saying people haven't noticed much difference in crucible but I will see this weekend when I give souros a go.

[Ryan Pedro 0]

SUROS RIP... also they destroyed the Mythoclast... absolutely unacceptable... it is a trophy gun and special bounty weapon now... that's it... fuck pvp, and bungie, they are ruining this game catering to all the whiners out there... in all fairness, nerf the hell out of pvp... just leave pve alone!!!

[Sennex 1,903]

SUROS RIP... also they destroyed the Mythoclast... absolutely unacceptable... it is a trophy gun and special bounty weapon now... that's it... fuck pvp, and bungie, they are ruining this game catering to all the whiners out there... in all fairness, nerf the hell out of pvp... just leave pve alone!!!

 

Sadly Bungie isn't learning that you cannot tie PVP to PVE

[Stretch616 697]

Been using autos in PvP for all of last night and really didn't notice any difference. Well apart from a fair few more people using bad juju. It seems a bit harsh to say that a 2.5% damage output reduction (paraphrasing notes a bit) makes a weapon as good as the Suros now trash or am i missing something? Ok it's not as good as it was, but it's still got to ne one of the go to weapons. It's just now that the pulse rifles are actually a viable alternative.

My 0.02

[Sennex 1,903]

The stated values are 2.5%, but the testing is showing that in the case of the 77/28's it actually up around 15%

[Sennex 1,903]

 

People cry out to nerf over-powered weapons, but what if they aren't over-powered? What if all the other choices are just under-powered? The problem with Destiny is that a weapon's stats are used for both PvE and PvP, so when you try to balance a weapon for one if effects the other. This could be fixed in multiple ways by. First, they could create two variants of each weapon, one for PvE and the other for PvP which would in turn double the amount of weapons and the grind to find the variant you want. Second, they could split a weapon's stats between PvE and PvP. This won't increase the grind for players, but it will increase the work load for developers. Lastly, just turn all balancing changes into hidden modifiers within PvP and not directly to the weapons. Because the modifiers will be tied directly to PvP and not the weapons, PvE will be completely unaffected. That's just my take on the matter. I feel like I have good ideas that could be used, but I generally have a hard time expressing them so they might seem odd.

great post on this

[Sennex 1,903]

As it stands now, post 1.1.1 patch, here are the new approximate TTKs. They are all based off of a fully armored Titan (so the maximum TTK), and are assuming the shooter gets all headshots.

TTKs:

High Impact AR TTK = 1.06 s (previously .93 s)

 

Middle Impact AR TTK = 1.00 s (previously .90 s)

 

Low Impact AR TTK = .93 s (Let's be real, no one can get 16 headshots in a row with these things, so this is not at all useful, and the TTK is the same as before the patch)

 

High Impact PR TTK = .94 s to .83 s (depending on ROF)

 

Middle High Impact PR TTK = 1.00 s

 

Middle Low Impact PR TTK = 1.01 s

 

Low Impact PR TTK = 1.07 s

 

As you can see, the High Impact PRs are the new fastest killers, while the Mid Impact ARs and PRs still remain relevant. Low Impact PRs, and High Impact ARs are now the slowest killing weapons.

 

In my opinion, the damage nerf to ARs was unecessary, as the extent of the damage buff to the PRs has more than made them competitive. If it were up to me, I would keep the changes made to AR range calculations, so as to clearly define a role between them and PRs, and remove the damage nerf. This would provide High Impact and Medium Impact weapons from both classes with similar TTKs, and it would allow for distinctions between close quarters, and mid range combat. As it stands, the High Impact PRs are the clear winners in all areas, with little to no reason to use ARs.

[Sennex 1,903]

and another quality post:

http://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/2x5nwr/indepth_weapon_stats_spreadsheet_update_111_help/

 

 

Hello my friend and welcome to the end of the world as we know it! I'll be your guide, the number addicted front line trooper you've all come to semi love-ish.

Just gonna get the links out of the way for the people with the most valuable time:

Spreadsheet[1]

 

Old thread[2]

 

Hey, I could use a hand here?

Hey random person that plays destiny! Know that auto rifle/pulse rifle you're about to go out in the wild with? Could you please post below the headshot damage and body shot damage with said gun? Remember to be at your optimal range when scouting for these numbers, and they must be completely vanilla as well (no damage bonuses from perks and whatnot).

 

In the old days I could go through multiple videos confirming damage numbers, seeing as this is a very recent patch and there's a lot of new data to gather, I thought it'd be a great opportunity for the people who want to help with the spreadsheet.

 

Just post the numbers, and I'll do the rest. This only concerns pulse rifles and auto rifles as they were the ones affected.

Also exotic archetype easter egg suggestions?

 

Intro

 

As you can see the whole thing is a big work in progress, but going whats been gathered so far it's not looking pretty good, there's a little oh yeah but there's mostly oh no.

 

The good!

 

Pulse rifles are really damn good now, like really, really good. There's still no accurate RPM and TTK numbers to look into (more on that down below) but I can with a lot of confidence tell you they're part of the meta right now, especially considering a very big thing with this patch.

 

Red death now arguably kills faster than any auto rifle, suros, and most scout rifles. Statistically speaking it's the exact same stats as the strangers rifle with something around 33% more damage, it's in it's completely unique archetype. Only other weapon in the game that has this feature is the Vex Mythoclast.

 

Bad Juju is good, very good, but its not amazing I'm gonna kill everything good. The optimal pulse rifle archetype of the lower tier at the moment is the rapid one which is a tier below the Bad Juju. They have slightly lower damage but the rate of fire makes up for it making them kill faster. It's still very much a viable weapon now.

 

Three Little Words and the other pulse rifles of the highest damage tiers takes one burst and a breath to kill people, it's absurd the amount of damage in a burst.

 

Hand Cannon and Shotgun nerf are noticeable, but not game breaking. What you were accomplishing before with these guns you will more than likely be able to do now-

 

Armor piercing nerf, more data required.

 

Fusion rifle nerf, more data required.

 

Vex Mythoclast stop messing around with this gun bungie.

 

The two weaker auto rifle archetypes were almost not affected by the patch.

 

The Bad, AND the ugly

 

Auto rifles right now took a much bigger hit than anticipated, they barely held up in PVE, right now I would not keep someone in my raid team if they took out an auto rifle.

 

I'll sum this up:

 

The Vex Mythoclast kills as fast as the auto rifles from bodyshots as the auto rifles does from full headshots. Do you know what this means? This means a Vex vs an auto rifle if the vex doesn't have a single headshot and the auto rifle has all headshots, they'll kill around the same speed. You're literally better of using the vex aiming for people's feet than even trying any auto rifle.

 

They just really messed up auto rifles, big time.

 

Pulse Rifle stats you say?

 

Don't get your hopes up too much, I still don't have the RPM or the burst delay numbers, but I know I can gather these values with recording devices, which I will do in time (just like bungie!). People ask me all the time why there aren't any stats on the pulse rifles, some even say they're disappointed and show a lot of dismay.

 

I'll give you a little bit of insight, TTK (time to kill) is measured using shots to kill and RPM (rounds per minute). Every gun in the game except for the pulse rifles is a set value. They will all fire at a single firerate. Pulse rifles on the other hand have burst RPM, and delay between burst.

 

To make things worse, the delay between the bursts, AND the burst itself is different on every single archetype. With all these factors put in mind I need to manually look into the firetime (time between each shot) and burst delay to gather the data I need.

 

Also TTK on pulse rifles is a little different, because of the nature of the weapons a pulse rifle that takes 7 will have a drastically higher TTK than one with 6 shots because of the extra burst need. This makes some more tied to precision and some more tied to spraying.

 

That's all I have for now, I will have videos, threads and numbers explaining all of these things in time, and you will figure out that TTK on Bad Juju and Red Death.

 

Author Notes

 

For the sake of the games future, I really hope they'll put some more thought into to what they've done. Bungie that is.

I do not blame Deej for any of this, he's a PR guy, I doubt he had any saying in any auto rifle fix.

And what is it with this tag stuff?

[Sennex 1,903]

TL;DR of the above post:

 

The two weaker auto rifle archetypes were almost not affected by the patch.

 

The Bad, AND the ugly

 

Auto rifles right now took a much bigger hit than anticipated, they barely held up in PVE, right now I would not keep someone in my raid team if they took out an auto rifle.

 

I'll sum this up:

 

The Vex Mythoclast kills as fast as the auto rifles from bodyshots as the auto rifles does from full headshots. Do you know what this means? This means a Vex vs an auto rifle if the vex doesn't have a single headshot and the auto rifle has all headshots, they'll kill around the same speed. You're literally better of using the vex aiming for people's feet than even trying any auto rifle.

[Ryan Pedro 0]

Auto rifles right now took a much bigger hit than anticipated, they barely held up in PVE, right now I would not keep someone in my raid team if they took out an auto rifle...

 

keep this in mind raiders... hand cannons and scout rifles...

[techno 3,510]

Might get the time on target from the vault and give it a go now.

Need to test this out myself will hit crucible as it seems some say ARs are worthless yet stretch says otherwise and a guy on youtube said it literaly takes 1more bullet to kill.

It still comes down to aim.

[Sennex 1,903]

Auto rifles right now took a much bigger hit than anticipated, they barely held up in PVE, right now I would not keep someone in my raid team if they took out an auto rifle...

 

keep this in mind raiders... hand cannons and scout rifles...

 

Scout rifles? Fuck that, Gimme the Strangers Rifle! (Why the fuck did I shard that thing, 3 times now?)

[Stretch616 697]

TL;DR of the above post:

The two weaker auto rifle archetypes were almost not affected by the patch.

The Bad, AND the ugly

Auto rifles right now took a much bigger hit than anticipated, they barely held up in PVE, right now I would not keep someone in my raid team if they took out an auto rifle.

I'll sum this up:

The Vex Mythoclast kills as fast as the auto rifles from bodyshots as the auto rifles does from full headshots. Do you know what this means? This means a Vex vs an auto rifle if the vex doesn't have a single headshot and the auto rifle has all headshots, they'll kill around the same speed. You're literally better of using the vex aiming for people's feet than even trying any auto rifle.

I don't doubt any of the numbers. There's obviously some good maths behind it. It just didn't feel that way to me on the past few days play. I used the "horrible" AR's and did just fine. In fact for the first time in a while (if not ever) there was a good variety of weapons used in the crucible. With nothing seemingly being OP

As for the comment about not taking people on a raid team if they use AR's. Well it's comments like that, that really, really annoy me. Destiny is not a min/maxer game. Everything is a viable option, not neccessarily the best, but more than anything it should be fun for the person playing the game rather than their fun being dictated by statistics and numbers.

[Jason 1,245]

Auto rifles right now took a much bigger hit than anticipated, they barely held up in PVE, right now I would not keep someone in my raid team if they took out an auto rifle...

keep this in mind raiders... hand cannons and scout rifles...

I hope you're joking. You're joking right?

[techno 3,510]

As for the comment about not taking people on a raid team if they use AR's. Well it's comments like that, that really, really annoy me. Destiny is not a min/maxer game. Everything is a viable option, not neccessarily the best, but more than anything it should be fun for the person playing the game rather than their fun being dictated by statistics and numbers.

Well said, whos to say someone using an auto isnt a beast that solo crota was done with a 300 lmg.

[Ryan Pedro 0]

I hope you're joking. You're joking right?

 

of course... I was just mocking the poster that said it...I could care less what people bring in... well, NO BLUE WEAPONS...

[Sennex 1,903]

of course... I was just mocking the poster that said it...I could care less what people bring in... well, NO BLUE WEAPONS...

 

But I got some awesome blue Sahara AR's

[Jason 1,245]

We should do a blue primary only VoG run

[Ryan Pedro 0]

But I got some awesome blue Sahara AR's

Keep them for our patrols...

[Ryan Pedro 0]

We should do a blue primary only VoG run

Interesting... I only have a maxxed out strangers rifle...