Armistice Day and the far right

[Dr Diamond 407]

It wrecks my mind thinking about the suffering that people endured to give us our freedoms that we all too often take for granted. Millions gave their lives to put a stop to genocide and the persecution of those who couldn't defend themselves in both world wars,, and more recently we have lived through 13 years of a dirty war in Afghan to "liberate" the people from the Taliban. I cant imagine the pain that people feel losing a family member or friend in war. I literally will never know what it feels like, and its through their sacrifice that I am so lucky that I will mostly likely never have to go to war and go through what they did.

 

So it really, really bugs me, when racist organisations like the BNP, EDL and Britain First, post pictures of troops, and poppies, and random pictures of blokes in turbans with captions like " this bloke hates our troops, share if you think this is a disgrace blah blah blah"....You know what, a fucking lot of people who were not white,and were not Christian were also fighting on our side. They died too. They deserve to be remembered too. So why dont you see the BNP, EDL or BF recognising the contribution of Muslims, Hindus or Sikhs ? Why, not ? Because they are racist fucks who want nothing more than to remove everyone who doesnt fit into their warped idea of what it means to be "British". There was a time when our country was known for being a place were everyone was accepted, and we were proud to be the ones to step in and help out those in need when nobody else would. So its about time everyone in society started pulling their fingers out and standing up to this evil. That is what these brave people died fighting for. The best way to remember them, to give thanks to them, and to honour them, is to not let their sacrifice be in vain.



(for the US folks, the BNP, EDL and Britain First are far right anti-immigration, anti- islam, anti-anyone who isnt white organisations that try to act like they have some politically credibility, but anyone with half a brain can see right through them)

[phil bottle 9,607]

To be honest I think the media has whipped people up over the last decade and a lot of scary right wing groups are on the rise in europe.

 

I heard the EDL and NF had a fight in Rochdale over who was the most racist. Most of their members would probably be deemed as subhuman by a real nazi regime and not last long themselves, ironically.

 

These groups see London as a lost cause which makes me a happy boy.

 

They'd get battered to fuck if they tried to march through hackney

[Drifter 851]

 

(for the US folks, the BNP, EDL and Britain First are far right anti-immigration, anti- islam, anti-anyone who isnt white organisations that try to act like they have some politically credibility, but anyone with half a brain can see right through them)

 

I can't speak on how things are there, but I will say a few things about how they are here. Adam not all right wing groups are racist. I side mostly with the Republican side and consider myself on the conservative right wing side (if I had to choose a right or left that is). So when people automatically assume that any "right wing" person or group is a racist, that is the same as saying that any Islamic group is  terrorist. I'm not accusing you of that but rather I'm just pointing out that the door of acceptance swings both ways.

 

Here's the problem I have when I hear people saying that the far right hates anyone that is not white nor Christian, when that is not true. Or that they hate people just because they are Muslim. The truth is it is the other way around. I would ask you this....have you ever read the Koran? Because I actually have. The reason I did is because I wanted to be as informed as I can these days about the world around me, so back after the 9/11 attacks here in the USA I read it back around 2001/2002. Did you know that in the Koran it actually teaches the followers of Allah that they must "fight and kill the unbelievers wherever you find them until all religion is for Allah". I also remember a passage in it that says Allah told his followers to strike terror into the hearts of those that don't follow him and strike thier necks from every fingertip.

 

So truth be told, the most unaccepting religion in the world are actually those that follow the Koran. Yet most people think if you simply don't agree with what the Muslim religion teaches, then you must be a racist. As most here know already, I don't really like to get into the topic of religion here because I feel it's a personal thing and no one has the right to tell someone what to believe. So all I will say on the topic of religion is this. My religion teaches to love all and to say a prayer for those that are non believers, not to hate and strike down anyone that does not follow my beliefs such as some religions do.

 

On the subject of immigration, that is a big problem here in the USA. Illegal immigrants flood over our borders every day. It's not about them being "non white" but rather it is about the fact that a large number of them bring with them crime and other problems which cause issues for the law abiding society here. Not to even mention the illegals that take jobs from citizens because they work for less than minimum wage. If someone wants to go through proper channels and become a valid US citizen here then I have no issue what so ever with that, but the illegal immigrants are the ones that are the main problem here.

 

Also my reply was not to dog you out in any way, because I know you didn't really say anything about religious beliefs. But anytime the topic of Muslim/racist discussion is brought up a lot of it does pertain to religion so that's way I was replying to that portion of it. Wasn't anything directly aimed at you

 

 

[Docwagon 856]

Have you read the Torah and Old Testament as well?  It certainly commands murder, as well as sets forth the manner of marking slaves and of course God was a lot more into killing folk in droves back then himself.  Did you notice the parts in the Koran about reaching out to Christians because they are only one step from Islam?  The concept of "People of the Book"?  Rules of warfare that prohibit the killing of innocents and noncombatants?

 

Reading religious texts literally, be it the Koran or the Bible, is a very modern idea which as risen along with the modern concept of science.  To indicate that Islam calls for murder simply ignores the huge populations who don't murder anyone yet are faithful, and ignores the lengthy history of cohabitation with others.  The news today talks about the groups of Christians and Jews under assault from ISIS.  The unspoken statement is there are groups of Christians and Jews who've lived there for centuries without issue until ISIS.

 

There are always people who will use religion as a cover for a secular power grab.  Witness the Crusades.  Allegedly a war by Christians to bottle up and stop Islam, yet when you look at who they actually attacked and where, who they claimed they were going to help and if they did, the timing, etc. Its rapidly apparent its not.  Its an attempt for European nobility to gain wealth and power, to increase Papal authority over various eastern orthodox churches.

[Drifter 851]

Yes I have read the old and new testaments. As with any religious text part of how it is perceived is by the person reading it that I agree with, but perhaps you missed my point doc. Which is if you read the Koran it is not some peaceful religion which is how it is touted as being by those that like to slam the right wing conservative Christians on a regular bases these days. My point is that racism, hatred, religious discrimination, and non acceptance is a two way street. Not just white/conservative/Christian against other groups of people.

[Docwagon 856]

 Which is if you read the Koran it is not some peaceful religion which is how it is touted as being by those that like to slam the right wing conservative Christians on a regular bases these days. 

 

 

I'm pretty familiar with it since I converted to Islam in 2004.  It is a peaceful religion just as much as any Semitic religion is. 

[Drifter 851]

 

I'm pretty familiar with it since I converted to Islam in 2004.  It is a peaceful religion just as much as any Semitic religion is. 

 

I disagree Doc, but that's what is great with America, we do not have to agree. You can feel how you do, and I will feel how I do.

 

Edit-

I Honest would like to talk and ask why you decided to convert to Islam? but I fear any discussion of the subject may result in arguments or hard feelings, because any discussion on that is bound to go there   But I know you always have seemed like a level headed guy, and I like to think I am as well. So lets give it a shot. And if things get to the point of where either of us feel uncomfortable then we'll just agree to stop the discussion so we can remain respectful friends okay?

 

How come you came to the idea of converting to Islam doc? Because for an American to convert that is not your everyday thing so I would like to ask that if you don't mind?

 

And since you are in fact a follower of Islam, what are your feelings on what the Koran says about violence/fear towards Christians/infidels/those that do not worship Allah ?

[Drifter 851]

Actually doc, the more I think about this the more I think it's not a good idea. Your beliefs are your own, mine are my own, trying to explain them to each other is a bit pointless. I've liked you for years here and hope you feel the same way about me, so I'm gonna say lets just not pursue this discussion any further. It may start friendly but it just has too much potential for ill feelings. No hard feelings bud.

[JsinOwl 644]

Good call Steve. No matter how careful you try to be in these discussions, there's no getting around the fact that me saying I believe in X implies that you're beliefs in Y are wrong. People tend to get agitated when foundation of they're existence gets assaulted.

 

 

Adam, the world is filled with shitheads. They exist on the far left, far right and everywhere in-between. Some groups get themselves organized and make more of ruckus, but they're really no different than all the other shitheads. Best thing to do is ignore them completely and if they get violent, well... somtimes you need to kick some ass.

[Docwagon 856]

I don't mind and frankly its impossible for you to upset be on the subject.  We're friends and I don't think that's likely to change.  In the best possible meaning, I don't need your approval and having it or not having it doesn't matter to me, we're friends either way.  I certainly won't say your religion is wrong, although I will say your belief Islam is not a peaceful religion is.  One must understand the traditional Arab mind to really grasp it, and to be frank its a lot of heavy lifting to do so.  Way more than I can do in an internet post, although I can refer you to several books if you are truly interested.

 

First off, you can't read the Koran with a modern western mindset and truly grasp it.  We are a literal minded people.  Arabs are not, especially traditional nomadic Arabs.  Threats of violence are generally cathartic.  Like the Indian counting coup, its a way to wage warfare without injury or loss of manpower, which is incredibly desirable in any tribal people.  Losing two or three men to conflict, even if you win, may deplete you too much to survive the environment or other tribes.  Even today road rage is HORRENDOUS among Arabs, but they both know they are just talking.  They never really fight.  You cannot apply Western logic to what they say.  There are rituals and rules to say things in a certain way if its meant to be taken literally, and that goes from anything from meeting at a coffee house to declaring war.  I can go into this more later if you like.

 

As for why I converted, you have to remember I lived in the Middle East for two years.  Not sequestered on a military base, but out in the population.  Most of my friends were Muslim, and they generally seemed happier than my Western/Christian or Athiest friends.  I've got to head into work for an overtime detail, but again I can go into this more if you like.

 

The lack of literalism appealed to me greatly.  It is impossible for me to accept any of the three books as literal truth.  However as allegory they work very well.  I'm more concerned with orthoproxy than orthodoxy, and Islam has something very much like Karma.  Do good things and be rewarded.  There's actually quite a bit of flexibility.  Can't fast due to age, traveling, pregnancy, etc?  No problem fast when you can.  Travel, war, some other reason you won't get around to fasting?  No problem, donate to a charity that feeds the hungry.  Fasting isn't for fasting, its for making you have empathy for the poor.  That held great attraction to me, and the feeling I got from my first ritual fasting was more empathy for the poor than any church sermon I ever sat through.  You FELT it.  You felt the anxiety, you felt the need, you understood.

 

I certainly don't care what, if any religion, you follow.  I certainly believe there are multiple paths up the mountain, so to speak.  I also believe that most people with a mouth full of religion tend to have little of it in their heart, regardless of which faith they claim.

[Drifter 851]

Appreciate your thoughts doc, and I do appreciate your first hand candid reply.  Like I said though. Difference of opinion is all. I don't mean any ill feelings by that what so ever, just have some different feelings is all.

[Docwagon 856]

http://m.bbc.com/news/uk-england-29833296

[Plumbers Crack 4,035]

Thanks Doc for some interesting and enlightening posts, and to both of you for proving that civilised debate and conversation is possible on the Internet

@Owl re shitheads.....*like*

[JsinOwl 644]

 

I also believe that most people with a mouth full of religion tend to have little of it in their heart, regardless of which faith they claim.

This is one of the greatest quotes ever.