Elliott Rodger

[Drifter 851]

I understand what you are saying Doc, but my point is that someone that is driven to  commit murder, be it one person or multiple persons they plan to kill, that person will find guns or other weapons needed to commit that act regardless what the gun laws are. There is nothing wrong with making sure mentally ill persons do not own firearms, I am in complete agreement with that for sure. The problem is though that no laws what so ever will prevent a dedicated murderer from attaining a means to commit murder. And the knee jerk reaction by liberals immediately following an incident such as this to have stricter gun laws does nothing by hinder law abiding citizens, not the criminals whom actually commit these crimes.

 

I think we are actually saying pretty much the same thing Doc, just in a bit different way is all. Because I don't mind "well thought out logical gun laws"...I just am against the knee jerk ban / make firearms harder to get for all type of gun laws is all. Plus I just feel that no amount of gun laws will actually make a bit of difference to a person that is actually ready to kill another person.

[deterioration 443]

After reading updates all day it looks like race and misogyny have trumped the gun debate in this case. As said in previous posts people are using this tragedy as another springboard for their agendas.

 

Not knowing all of his imbalances or mental issues: I don’t know if I agree with the blanket theory of misogyny and men seeing woman as sexual objects. I think it has to do with selfishness, jealousy, young mentality and under developed social interactions. I’m positive most of us have gone through being jealous and having our hearts stomped in the mud. This kid didn’t even get as far as "be careful what you wish for you just might get it". Seems to me like if someone took the time to talk to him and let him know everyone goes through the same shit in life it might have helped him? Maybe someone did? Has me wondering what if he was in a relationship and the girl cheated on or dumped him and got a new man? Would he have killed them and their families?

 

Hopefully this will get people talking to their kids and will help prevent stage 5 clingers, psycho stalkers, property damage, assaults, etc… in the future.  

[Drifter 851]

 

After reading updates all day it looks like race and misogyny have trumped the gun debate in this case. As said in previous posts people are using this tragedy as another springboard for their agendas.

 

Not knowing all of his imbalances or mental issues: I don’t know if I agree with the blanket theory of misogyny and men seeing woman as sexual objects. I think it has to do with selfishness, jealousy, young mentality and under developed social interactions. I’m positive most of us have gone through being jealous and having our hearts stomped in the mud. This kid didn’t even get as far as "be careful what you wish for you just might get it". Seems to me like if someone took the time to talk to him and let him know everyone goes through the same shit in life it might have helped him? Maybe someone did? Has me wondering what if he was in a relationship and the girl cheated on or dumped him and got a new man? Would he have killed them and their families?

 

Hopefully this will get people talking to their kids and will help prevent stage 5 clingers, psycho stalkers, property damage, assaults, etc… in the future.  

 

 

 

Agree 100%. Great post .

[J4MES OX4D 10,064]

 

After reading updates all day it looks like race and misogyny have trumped the gun debate in this case. As said in previous posts people are using this tragedy as another springboard for their agendas.

 

Not knowing all of his imbalances or mental issues: I don’t know if I agree with the blanket theory of misogyny and men seeing woman as sexual objects. I think it has to do with selfishness, jealousy, young mentality and under developed social interactions. I’m positive most of us have gone through being jealous and having our hearts stomped in the mud. This kid didn’t even get as far as "be careful what you wish for you just might get it". Seems to me like if someone took the time to talk to him and let him know everyone goes through the same shit in life it might have helped him? Maybe someone did? Has me wondering what if he was in a relationship and the girl cheated on or dumped him and got a new man? Would he have killed them and their families?

 

Hopefully this will get people talking to their kids and will help prevent stage 5 clingers, psycho stalkers, property damage, assaults, etc… in the future.  

 

From what I saw of Elliott Rodger; it seems his wealthy parents spoiled him throughout his life and that he expected everything to go his way and be on a plate for him. His attitudes to women and life in general was worrying. 

 

I have grave concern for the youth of today and society in general. Parents that are happy seeing their kids playing on Xbox for 6 hours a night, no fresh air, Kim Kardashian, Rihanna, One Direction and Chris Brown as role models and this image that they have to maintain on social networks of being beautiful in all selfies and having as many friends as possible.

 

I'd hate to be under 21 these days. The social pressures it seems is just too much now. Even guys are under pressure having perfect hair, skin, muscles and clothes. If someone doesn't fit the expectations; they get slated or bitched about by others. Also this fanboy culture we see in music and videgames has lead to people losing the plot, making death threats and literally going 'mental'. It's a far cry from the easy days I used to know. 

 

I think society is on the brink of collapse and I think metal illness particularly in young people will go through the roof with all the daily social pressures it seems. 

[Jason 1,245]

Interesting viewpoint in this article... Points fingers towards the "men's rights movement"

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/24/1301671/-Elliot-Roger-Gunman-in-California-Mass-Shooting-was-influenced-by-the-Men-s-Rights-Movement

[J4MES OX4D 10,064]

Interesting viewpoint in this article... Points fingers towards the "men's rights movement" http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/24/1301671/-Elliot-Roger-Gunman-in-California-Mass-Shooting-was-influenced-by-the-Men-s-Rights-Movement

Very good read. Thanks for posting!

[Megan 35]

Interesting viewpoint in this article... Points fingers towards the "men's rights movement" http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/24/1301671/-Elliot-Roger-Gunman-in-California-Mass-Shooting-was-influenced-by-the-Men-s-Rights-Movement

Yeah I read that Rodger was a big MRA, which isn't particularly surprising. The biggest issue I have with the men's rights movement is that they don't organize marches, they don't raise funding to help men, and they don't do anything outside of complaining on internet about how hard it is to be a man in this world. It's more a movement against women than it is a movement for men. I'm not really pointing a finger at them in this instance, but I can guarantee that Rodger's circle of MRA friends did nothing to discourage him from cursing women for his inability to get laid.

 

And @ deterioration  - Whether misogyny or just general youth mentality is to blame, hopefully something will be done. 

 

Also, here are some comments from his video, just to show how lovely people can be.

[Jason 1,245]

I've personally never even heard of a "men's rights movement." I also find it sad that you need a group to teach you how to be a damn man. Sad.

[lepercolony 275]

so this is weird, but reading this thread actually made me happy in the face of, you know, complete horror and sadness.  so much win, here.

 

@Sennex are there places specifically in the mental health service industry that need funding the most?  research, federal assistance for programs, new programs, etc.  

 

also in the OP article it was the father's lawyer who provided the "Asperger's" diagnosis, but it was a dated diagnosis from childhood -- i think it's the article that's confusing the issue by referring to Asperger's in the present tense.

[Playertd 177]

-

 WOW I cannot believe so many people are on his side.......doesn't even look like they are trolling, they sound serious.

[Sennex 1,903]

Not to derail here, but funding for programs, hospitals, and clinics would be awesome. After that, the media outlets need to stop jumping to it as the reason for shit like this to happen. 

 

Also, the Mens Rights Movement started out as an answer to the Feminist movement. Both had their points in time, but have since morphed into something really evil and wrong.

 

Still though, there are those that are Feminist that are not pants on head retarded, and there are 1 or 2 Mens Rights folks that don't feel the need to hate on women while jerking off to John Wayne posters and watching Roadhouse

 

 

 WOW I cannot believe so many people are on his side.......doesn't even look like they are trolling, they sound serious.

 

They are serious. Thats the scary part. 

 

I blame parents and the media for this shit, about 80/ 20 to be honest

[Docwagon 856]

I understand what you are saying Doc, but my point is that someone that is driven to  commit murder, be it one person or multiple persons they plan to kill, that person will find guns or other weapons needed to commit that act regardless what the gun laws are. There is nothing wrong with making sure mentally ill persons do not own firearms, I am in complete agreement with that for sure. The problem is though that no laws what so ever will prevent a dedicated murderer from attaining a means to commit murder. And the knee jerk reaction by liberals immediately following an incident such as this to have stricter gun laws does nothing by hinder law abiding citizens, not the criminals whom actually commit these crimes.

 

I think we are actually saying pretty much the same thing Doc, just in a bit different way is all. Because I don't mind "well thought out logical gun laws"...I just am against the knee jerk ban / make firearms harder to get for all type of gun laws is all. Plus I just feel that no amount of gun laws will actually make a bit of difference to a person that is actually ready to kill another person.

 

For the most part we're in agreement.  I think we have different expectations of what the law can do, though.  You'd be surprised how many robbers use toy guns.  Gang bangers can usually get guns through straw purchases, but the lone bad guy who's banned and doesn't have a lot of resources (contacts, cash, knowledge of work-arounds) etc. can find it difficult to find a gun.  Folks who are violently mentally ill may have trouble finding someone to arm them.  The guy who killed Laird couldn't just get new guns, or at least he didn't.  He waited until he got his old guns back from the court and got cleared.

 

That's not the main point, though.  The main point is stricter sentencing would remove the likely murderers from society before they murder.  Regardless of how dedicated they are, its unlikely they'll be able to get a gun inside a prison cell.

 

Traffic laws don't prevent all accidents, and we don't expect them to, but we don't clamor to end all traffic laws because we know that there would be more, and worse, accidents.

[Sennex 1,903]

Hey Doc, what are your thoughts on the Death Penalty?

 

I know this will derail, so if we made a different thread, I would love to hear your thoughts. Or hell PM me

[Drifter 851]

For the most part we're in agreement.  I think we have different expectations of what the law can do, though.  You'd be surprised how many robbers use toy guns.  Gang bangers can usually get guns through straw purchases, but the lone bad guy who's banned and doesn't have a lot of resources (contacts, cash, knowledge of work-arounds) etc. can find it difficult to find a gun.  Folks who are violently mentally ill may have trouble finding someone to arm them.  The guy who killed Laird couldn't just get new guns, or at least he didn't.  He waited until he got his old guns back from the court and got cleared.

 

That's not the main point, though.  The main point is stricter sentencing would remove the likely murderers from society before they murder.  Regardless of how dedicated they are, its unlikely they'll be able to get a gun inside a prison cell.

 

Traffic laws don't prevent all accidents, and we don't expect them to, but we don't clamor to end all traffic laws because we know that there would be more, and worse, accidents.

 

 

I got ya bud, like I said we agree pretty much.

 

I think some of the difficulties of me agreeing 100% though with that comes from the fact I live 6 miles from the center of Detroit. There are no difficulties for anyone getting a gun here if you want one no matter who you are if you truly want one

 

And yes, that is very sad to say that to be honest, but it's the truth. Because all honesties aside, tell me to get you an unregistered handgun right now, give me less than a hour and I'd be able to get you one for less than $100 in 45 mins-1hr off I-696 & Caniff, and probably get ya a rock for your pipe ta boot

 

It's sad how things are in the inner city here for sure.

[Dr Diamond 407]

doc

my phone wont quote your post.. you say banning the mentally ill from owning a gun would help prevent murders etc

I kind of agree. but I am thinking, where then does the line get drawn? some mental health conditions do not in anyway make people more at a risk of commiting murder. in some cases, mental health is clearly a big issue. which then means its down to an assessment of the individual. ..but then look at Oscar scumbag pistorius...no mental health issues, yet clearly his personality would appear to make him a serious risk with a firearm.

man this situation is fucked.no easy solutions for both sides of the gun debate.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[J4MES OX4D 10,064]

The general statistic is that 1 in 4 people worldwide at some stage of their life will suffer from mental illness but there in lots of varying types which range from minor and low risk to themselves all the way to severe and a risk to themselves and others. The most common would be depression and most people of the 25% that suffer from mental health problems suffer from some form of depression. The broadness of the illness can also range to manic depression which is commonly known as Bipolar which also has many types due to the array of symptoms. The more dangerous ones such as schizophrenia and general psychosis provide grave risk that has to be manged with medication. 

 

The one type of mental illness that I think is as rife as depression and prominent in young people today is personality disorders. Once again there is huge scope for symptoms in this group ranging from neurological disorders ranging from misconceptions of the world combined with psychosis traits whereby the person has violent traits which can be manifested in fantasies of the mind or in real life where harm is caused to others. Most mental illnesses along with personality disorders seem to affect people in their teens or early adulthood and can be caused by social, environmental, stress and traumatic events. These can also develop into the more severe illnesses of the mind including schizophrenia and bipolar later. 

 

With such a broad spectrum of illness types and symptoms and mentally ill essentially being grouped as the same along with cut-backs and a lack of resources in the community plus misdiagnosis and waiting lists; I think it's a shit situation. The lack of awareness of mental health issues particularly in the young leaves them isolated and clueless at what to do. Parents probably think their kid is having a strop or it's just part of growing up but there is a real stigma and lack of education surrounding the problem. 

 

Elliott Rodger was receiving help for his issues but even being in the system and recognised as having a problem; he still wasn't managed correctly. The lack of funding just leaves people who are ill and others vulnerable. People need care tailored to their problems particularity if they are still residing in the community and could pose a threat.  In the UK we have Community Mental Health Teams for people who suffer serious illness or who aren't hospitlaised but have been sectioned but they are stretched and it's not fair on anyone. People die but questions are always asked later of prevention - hardly ever are lessons learned.

 

Oxford University have been working on research for many many years stating that many illnesses can drastically shorten lifespan. Most mentally ill people who have the more moderate to severe illnesses die on average 20 years before the national average in the UK. With the amount of young people being sectioned or living at home managed by the CMHT; I can see the average death age plummeting in the UK in the future. The government needs to do more for everyone's sake. They bang on about smoking and drinking being bad in the long run but mental health problems still seems to be under the radar. 

[Docwagon 856]

I don't know where the line should be drawn. I am not an expert in mental health. Not even a knowledgeable laymen. However there are plenty of experts in our society who are qualified to offer expert opinions.

[Sennex 1,903]

Trimmed a double post from Doc.

[Docwagon 856]

Hey Doc, what are your thoughts on the Death Penalty?

 

I know this will derail, so if we made a different thread, I would love to hear your thoughts. Or hell PM me

 

As a rule, I'm for it.  I don't believe in warehousing human beings who will never be allowed to interact with society again, who continue to pose a threat to other inmates and prison staff, or who require such costly and resource intensive solutions to those two issues such as "super max" prison cells.  Beyond that, fire up a thread and we can talk about it.