Doc's firearms thread

[The3rdWalker 1,275]

You're in docs firearms thread... Sounds good though. Lol

Mother fucker...

[Diddums 4,346]

You dumbass rib 

[Docwagon 856]

 

Working up a new load for .45 ACP for my Redhawk.  Shoved one, earning one frowny face, but the others went where I wanted them to.  I think I'm going to be able to drive 230 gr bullets at the velocities I want with less recoil from the ACP brass than the .45 Colt brass.  I may reserve .45 Colt for 255 gr loads, but I"m going to have to mark my sights.  The heavier bullets will hit higher, so I need to have a mark on the adjustment screw for each load.

[Docwagon 856]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=553834542

 

I want this.  I'm debating if I want it enough to spend that kind of dough on it.  The starting price is damn fair.

 

[Docwagon 856]

Not quite willing to pony up for the 25-5 just yet.  I put a bid in on a Detective Special, though.  We'll see if I got it in the morning.

[Docwagon 856]

Colt Detective Special

S&W 29 (-2 or earlier)

S&W 24 or 624

S&W 25

 

Another one off the checklist.  Should be here late this week or early next week.  I haz an excite.

[Docwagon 856]

[Docwagon 856]

00 rounds of .357 magnum today at the indoor range.  50 loaded with CFE and 50 loaded with Acc #7.  #7 was very consistent and had less muzzle flash from both the 3" and the 4".  I need to find some more of it.

 

 

The remaining 28 rounds was shot on a target stripe and a roughly 1.5 second cadence.

 

 

I can't get the photo to rotate for some reason, but the stripe should run up and down.

 

Ok, neither photo will rotate.  Just tilt your head left.  

 

GP 100 4" is the Match Champion, bone stock

GP 100 3" is the Wiley Clapp with an internal polish and a Wolff spring kit.  I'm going to reinstall the factory hammer spring, I had 3 of the CCI primed cartridges not fire and the difference in trigger pull isn't worth the need to use Winchester primers only.

[Docwagon 856]

Indoor range, the overhead lighting on my bay didn't work so I was shooting from "twilight" into a well lit target bay.  15 yards.

 

First 6 with the GP100 WC:

 

 

"Group" of 50:

 

 

These are my CFE reloads that are not as consistent as I'd like.  I've probably got another 100 loaded up.  As long as I tip the barrel up before starting to shoot they aren't bad.

 

 

"Group" of 50 with the Detective Special

 

Ran the target down to 7 yards and worked on these dots.  Shooting from right to left then back left to right.  The top line is the GP100 WC, the bottom is the DS.

 

 

Ran it twice with both guns:  

 

 

I forgot to tip the gun up for the first shot on the right/top, which resulted in a flier but luckily not a squib.

[Docwagon 856]

New personal best of 6.06 on F.A.S.T.

 

 

The times on the left were shot cold and stupid.  I don't know WTF I was thinking, but I loaded 3 cartridges in the 1st magazine all 3 times.  I was thinking one in the pipe + 2 in the magazine instead of one in the pipe + 1 in the magazine, so of course the slide wasn't locking back and I was ejecting an unfired cartridge during the reload.  Yes, it took me 3 freaking runs before I realized what I was doing.  This is what happens when you skip morning coffee before going to the range...

 

Once I loaded a magazine of 2, I shot my personal best of 6.06.  I shot it 3 more times, had one lousy run, and two more decent ones.  The lousy run was me thinking "let's do something different with our elbows and see if we can get better split times".  Yeah, don't do that.

 

This was from a Bladetech Eclipse IWB holster with my Sig P226 and my Red Nichols magazine carrier both concealed with a polo.  My polo reloads suck butt.  The difference between the 6.06 run, 6.55 run, and 6.24 run were clean reload vs some cloth in the hand reload.  I think with my sports coat I would have been under 6.00 today.  End results:

 

[Docwagon 856]

I spent the day with my favorite caliber, God's caliber, the .45 ACP.  Indoor range, 15 yards, 112 rounds fired in 30 minutes.  Roughly 50%/50% P220 and P245. 

 

24 to the body, 24 to the head.  The first magazine to the body was spread a bit vertically, but I got it dialed in pretty quickly.

 

 

Next up, same with the P245.  POA for the body was the top of the orange box.  I got a little wild with the 3rd magazine to the head.  The indoor range was pretty hot and sweat was stinging my eyes and I decided "Training opportunity!" and just went with it instead of stopping and clearing my eyes.

 

 

The shot down in the arm was from the guy on the lane next to me.  He was shooting some sort of .38 at a target at roughly 3 yards and, well, here's his target roughly 2 boxes into it:

 

 

The ammo fired today was mixed brass .45, Winchester LPP, Berry's Bullets 230 gr plated.  The body shaped targets were over 4.7gr of Winchester Super Target.  The bull's eye targets were over 4.5gr of CFE.  I used WST until the ammo panic made it unavailable, but the CFE has turned out to be an excellent powder for .45 ACP.

 

 

**definitions**

POA = Point of Aim

LPP = Large Pistol Primer

WST and CFE are types of gunpowder

P220 is a full size single stack .45, the P245 is the compact version, both made by Sig Sauer. 

[JsinOwl 644]

Just wanted to say that while I have nothing to add, I always read and enjoy your gun posts. I also appreciate the rigor with which you train, very impressive as always.

[Jason 1,245]

Lol @ that guys target

[Docwagon 856]

I just noticed my last part wasn't included.  I did a cut and paste from my training journal and must not have scrolled down enough to get the last bit.

 

End of the session. One magazine into each target, so 8 rounds on the top from the P220 and 6 on the bottom from the P245. The P245 is a 6 o'clock hold and I did not adjust POA, so it was a bit high. The P220 has the Trijicon HD sights and I covered the black dot with the very top of the sight blade, not the orange dot. The 5th shot was a called flier and is the one that's low and right. The first shot was the one that's a bit high and right. The rest were in the dot.

 

 

So, these are the bull's eye targets I mentioned.  15y, one full magazine each.

[Docwagon 856]

Tactical Pistol Instructor
3 Day Course
June 1 - 3
Indianapolis, IN Carmel PD
$650
Sworn LE Only

I attended on my own dime but company time. I took my Sig P226 SCT in .40, and my P229 in .40 as a reserve. I shot all factory ammo, mostly American Eagle but also some Fiocchi. I had zero malfunctions.

Carmel PD hosted the training, and they were great hosts. They helped out with frangible ammo for those who lacked it, provided water and a clean facility, and were helpful to out of town officers about where restaurants were, etc. The facility itself had everything required for this type of training. -1/2 star for being at the waste water treatment plant and the poo smell being pretty heavy. (Sorry, Sgt. RJ, but we told you we'd have to deduct 1/2 star for the smell.. ) Seriously, they were excellent hosts with a nice facility in a secured environment behind a code-required gate.

There were 9 attendees, and I believe I was the only one who is not an instructor for their own department. There were several K9 or SWAT officers who were also trainers. 6 Glocks, 3 Sigs and all the Sigs were "classic" Sigs in TDA. The only malfunction I observed was from one guy's Glock and he had a few failures to feed. Everyone shot pretty darned well and there was no "that guy" who was out of his depth and shouldn't have been there. Ernest Langdon said "you guys don't suck" so I think we were within tolerances for shooting ability. I was a middle of the pack shooter, and didn't feel bad about it all given the experience and resumes of most of the guys in the class. Everyone but me shot from a duty rig. I shot from my normal desk jockey set up, slacks, button up shirt, and a sports jacket. 

To give an idea of the level of shooting in the class, each day a shooting competition was conducted with a hat for a prize. The first one was the 10 shots at 10 yards in 10 seconds into the bull's eye target (B-8, I think). I scored a 95 and I think I was 3rd, with a 98 taking the win. Day 2 was 6 shots 2 handed (reload) 6 shots SHO (reload) and 6 shots WHO. The winning time was in the 17 seconds and I wasn't close as I knew I was running slower and threw several shots WHO trying to make time. The last one was the shoot 9 into 3 targets at very close distance (left to right body shots, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1 then 1 head shot on each) and I shot it clean in 3.43 and was smoked by the winner who was under 3 seconds, something near 2.80 but I don't recall the exact number). 

*********

Day 1:
Lecture covering some refresher/basic material from the color spectrum of awareness, shooting under stress, the importance of subconscious performance, grip and stance basics, etc, as well as touched a bit on learning theory and instructing. I won't go into detail, but I have 6 pages of notes from the lecture, so a lot of material was covered. We ended with a safety brief, identifying a primary and secondary medic, nearest hospital, etc.

Range training started with dry fire and moved into live fire. Ernest would later point out one of the important parts of having students do dry fire first was to observe gun handling skills and habits early on, which makes a lot of sense from an instructor standpoint.

On the range Langdon covered his 4 step draw, the importance of the hands moving at the same time, and when to complete the grip. I think this is going to help me speed my presentation as I saw a few tweaks I can make.

Next was reloads, with the importance of both hands moving at the same time and trying to have the magazines pass each other during the reload. Realistic goals were presented as for times to attempt to get to.

We shot several drills and packed up for the day.

Day 2:
My note taking on day 2 was a bit lax as we were on the range most of the day and I scribbled things down on break.

We shot the FAST, no one was in coin territory and while no one got a hat pin one shooter was maybe a 1/16th of an inch from his. I personally shot one of the worst FAST I've done in recent memory. I was simply trying to think of too many things to tweak at once, tried to change my draw a bit, and got a hand full of jacket lining. I rushed my shots making up time and shot for absolute butt. Actually I shot like butt most of the morning. 

We started working on shooting on the move and Langdon's description of "pulling with your feet" instead of pushing off was one of my biggest take always from the class. My accuracy improved and I was able to move much faster with the movement as he presents it. I actually shot better moving than stationary because I was concentrating on my feet and got out of my own way on the gun and the recoil anticipation issues I was having early in the morning. We covered forward, backward, lateral, and angle movements and shot several drills to reinforce movement.

One handed manipulation, to include drawing, reloading, malfunction clearance, etc. was presented next. I was familiar with nearly all of this and it synced with previous training for the most part. Langdon did show as a one handed method for stripping the magazine for a double feed that was all new to me, and if I recall correctly he said Todd Green showed it to him.

Langdon borrowed my coat, and gave some demonstrations on a "hip dip" used to make space between the cover garment and the gun as well as some other tips on drawing from a suit jacket, sports coat etc. type cover garment.

By the end of day 2 we'd shot roughly 900 round to include frangible. I cleaned and lubed my gun after day 2.

Day 3:

We'd been warned the end of day 3 was going to include manual labor to reset the block wall that catches bullets, picks up brass, etc. I dressed for working, button up shirt and cargo pants, and shot without concealment for this day.

This was a pretty high round count day. The morning was one of the most enjoyable training experiences I've had that didn't involve blowing something up. We got a lot of reps in on a moving target when we also moved. We moved forward, backward, at various angles, and parallel to the target. The target was on a mover that kept it going at a decent jogging pace. My department has a mover and this wasn't totally new to me, but I've never been able to get so many reps in and to work so many different angles nor have I gotten the same level of feedback as I shot.

Langdon made some "3D" targets and we talked about shot placement on the surface of the target vs. at the vitals and some drills to show that to students.

We worked around cover, and Langdon's "modified prone" was all new to me vs. actually hitting the dirt and having a period of time you aren't able to shoot. He explained when to put which knee down based on distance, what you're trying to accomplish, etc. Standoff of cover and the reasons were covered, considering how much of you is visible to the target, not giving up ground, the "liquid pane of glass" concept for slicing the pie, etc.

We also went over the best place to stand when observing a new shooter before you've verified safe handling vs. best place to stand to observe what they are actually doing with the gun, how to control shooters about to do something stupid like turn with a gun in their hand, etc. Most of this part of the class was new to me as a non-instructor.

My round count was very close to the 1500 called for. I shot roughly 150 frangible and 1200-1300 jacketed bullets by the end of day 3.



********

The class was well worth the investment in time and money. Mr. Langdon is an amicable and effective instructor, and I hope to be able to attend training with him again at some point. I believe the lesson plan was solid, is applicable to the students' goals, and was very well presented. Even the bullshit sessions during breaks/down time were not just "here's all the cool stuff I've done" but more of "here's cool stuff I've learned by doing cool stuff that I can let you know as well". Even with note taking I'm sure I missed some information that I nodded along with and then let it fall out of my brain as I nodded along with the next point. I've no doubt this will help me be a better shooter, and it already has made me a better shooter on the move. I'm looking forward to implementing the tweaks to get my draw time down and more consistent.

Thanks to Mr. Langdon, to Carmel PD and Sgt. RJ for hosting, and to my own department for allowing me to attend on duty. Thanks to the other students for the camaraderie, for being safe gun handlers...and for not sucking.  I'd train with any of you guys again in a heartbeat, even in the poo smell.

[TigerBurge 2,375]

What do you think of the Smith and Wesson M&P shield? A store here has them on sale for $399.

[Docwagon 856]

What do you think of the Smith and Wesson M&P shield? A store here has them on sale for $399.

 

Excellent gun for the money.  Small enough to conceal pretty easily, ton of support in terms of holsters, sights, etc.  Large enough to shoot pretty easily, as in recoil management and factory sights are good.  The trigger is decent out of the box, but if you don't like it Apex makes a kit that smooths it up.  Spare magazines aren't very expensive.  All in all I think it's a great choice for someone who doesn't want to carry a duty size pistol.  It is a *touch* big for pocket carry in most pants, though, and I'd recommend a nice IWB holster.  Look up Clinger Holsters if you buy one, they make a good quality kydex holster that's priced quite well. 

 

You can find them online for $330-ish, so figure in shipping and FFL transfer but $400 isn't a terrible price.  Check Palmetto State Armory, they are in your state and usually have good prices.

 

I would get the 9mm no thumb safety version.  The .40 is going to be more recoil for no real gain in terminal ballistics and the thumb safety is horrible in terms of ergonomics.

[Sennex 1,903]

My post was asking about the Sig P938.

 

My wife is finally wanting to start getting over her fear of Firearms. (Her dad was an Armorer for the FBI, for a number of years, and he sadly did nothing but scare the shit out of her, but that is a different matter).

 

We had been looking at the p232, but we cannot find one locally in a price range that is feasible.

 

She is only 5'2", and her hand size is odd, I would end up changing the grips on either of these, as well as getting a slightly extended Mag.

 

We are not looking to purchase just yet, she starts her training with my aunt in about a month. My aunt is going to work with her on different pistols, so my wife gets a better feel, and better explores what she is comfortable with. But as of right now, she is leaning towards the 938. (Who knows, she might change completely, and end up with a colt revolver, like my mom uses)

[Docwagon 856]

My post was asking about the Sig P938.

 

 

 

How much is she realistically going to train? How much time is she going to spend dry firing?  Is she going to attend any sort of decision based training with shoot/no-shoot scenarios? If the answers aren't "a lot, a lot, and yes" then I would shy away from anything with a thumb safety.  The Sig P938 has a small and relatively stiff safety, and for that reason I would recommend against it for a new shooter, for someone who isn't going to be very dedicated to training and practice, and the cocked and locked carry can be intimidating to new users.

 

You need to be able to work the safety under stress, perhaps while being grappled, and you also need to leave the safety on right up until you decide you have to shoot or you've got a gun that has zero room for error with trigger discipline before an AD occurs.  All of these are bad for the newbie or for the person who's only dabbling in firearms.

Guns I would look strongly at:

LCR revolver  (Smallest, light, not much recoil, easy administrative handling to load, unload, clean, etc.)

M&P Shield (See previous post)

Sig P239  (A more expensive but "better" alternative to the Shield.  Heavier, though, and slightly more complicated to work.  I like the DA first trigger pull as a means of reducing the odds of an ND, but it is a bit harder to learn to shoot and you must religiously decock after firing but before holstering)

Glock 26 (a few more rounds than the Shield, easy gun to operate, but blockier and a bit tougher to conceal in most lady's clothing.

 

Changing grips doesn't effect the hand size to grip fit as much as you think.  It' not the width that matters as much as the front to back length, sometimes called length of pull.  Grip width effects concealment, but only marginally effects handling.

[Sennex 1,903]

How much is she realistically going to train? How much time is she going to spend dry firing?  Is she going to attend any sort of decision based training with shoot/no-shoot scenarios? If the answers aren't "a lot, a lot, and yes" then I would shy away from anything with a thumb safety.  The Sig P938 has a small and relatively stiff safety, and for that reason I would recommend against it for a new shooter, for someone who isn't going to be very dedicated to training and practice, and the cocked and locked carry can be intimidating to new users.

 

You need to be able to work the safety under stress, perhaps while being grappled, and you also need to leave the safety on right up until you decide you have to shoot or you've got a gun that has zero room for error with trigger discipline before an AD occurs.  All of these are bad for the newbie or for the person who's only dabbling in firearms.

Guns I would look strongly at:

LCR revolver  (Smallest, light, not much recoil, easy administrative handling to load, unload, clean, etc.)

M&P Shield (See previous post)

Sig P239  (A more expensive but "better" alternative to the Shield.  Heavier, though, and slightly more complicated to work.  I like the DA first trigger pull as a means of reducing the odds of an ND, but it is a bit harder to learn to shoot and you must religiously decock after firing but before holstering)

Glock 26 (a few more rounds than the Shield, easy gun to operate, but blockier and a bit tougher to conceal in most lady's clothing.

 

Changing grips doesn't effect the hand size to grip fit as much as you think.  It' not the width that matters as much as the front to back length, sometimes called length of pull.  Grip width effects concealment, but only marginally effects handling.

 

I will look into those. Thank you

 

The thing with the grip is that the stock grip on it was not at all comfortable to my wife, but there was one being sold where the owner had replaced the grips to a different style, and it felt better for her.

 

The Ext Mag on it was because her pinky and ring finger were sort of hanging out to dry, and it also led to discomfort. Adding that in, and all of a sudden it was the perfect size for her hand.

[Docwagon 856]

I will look into those. Thank you

 

The thing with the grip is that the stock grip on it was not at all comfortable to my wife, but there was one being sold where the owner had replaced the grips to a different style, and it felt better for her.

 

The Ext Mag on it was because her pinky and ring finger were sort of hanging out to dry, and it also led to discomfort. Adding that in, and all of a sudden it was the perfect size for her hand.

 

Yeah, the P938 is an attempt to make a mini-1911.  IMO, unless you want to pocket carry it as a backup to a 1911, I don't see it's place.  It's flat and small, so easy for pocket carry, but lots of downsides.

[Docwagon 856]

Oh, and the XD(s) in 9mm is another good one to look at.  Good sights out of the box, decent trigger, pretty flat, has a grip safety which locks the trigger if you aren't holding it, and reasonably priced.

[TigerBurge 2,375]

Yeah it's at PSA. It's a great store. Knowledgeable staff. I've been up there several times to use their range.

[Docwagon 856]

Yeah it's at PSA. It's a great store. Knowledgeable staff. I've been up there several times to use their range.

 

LEO pricing is $309.  I've been real tempted to get one in 9mm for an ankle gun.

[The3rdWalker 1,275]

LEO pricing is $309. I've been real tempted to get one in 9mm for an ankle gun.

Hey Doc, when we lived in Texas I had a lot of fun doing some recreational shooting with a Glock 19 to the point where I looked into taking a class for my conceal carry permit.

I'm an absolute novice outside of seasonal deer and bear hunting (I personally own a 270 and 308) so if my wife and I wanted our own, would you say a Glock 19 is a good starting point? It was such a nice change from being a rifle out. I'd also be looking for something easy maintenance wise.