Doc's firearms thread

[Drifter 851]

Doc I have a gun question for you that maybe you can help me with. I've got a Mossberg 500 12ga full length barrel/wood stock that I have been meaning to strip down and rebuild into a nice home defense shotgun for the longest time now but just have not got around to doing yet. I'm thinking I may finally do it over the holiday season when I have a bit more free time in a few weeks so I've been doing some searching online and looking at all the tactical/upgrade parts for it. I'm not going to do anything too expensive or crazy with the build but I'm thinking composite rear stock with built into rear pistol grip, rail mount shell holder, shorten the barrel, flashlight mount and composite forend.

 

And that's where I have a question for you. In looking at the composite forends for shotguns I see they have the standard grip, then the forend grip that also has a pistol grip on it. I've shot a lot of rifles and a number of shotguns but I have never shot any long gun that had a pistol grip on the forend. To me that seems like maybe it would take a lot of getting use to or just seems a bit unnatural of a way to hold a long gun. Have you ever shot one with a pistol grip forend? and if so did it seem odd feeling at first or was it not an issue?

[Docwagon 856]

I like Mossberg, but the downside for making a "tactical" shotgun is the safety location.  WIth a standard stock, its perfect and can be easily accessed with either hand.  Once you put a pistol grip stock on it, though, you have to move your hand from the firing position to activate or deactivate the safety.  That sucks.

 

Barrels are cheap, especially used.  I wouldn't shorten the factory barrel.  By the time you have it cut, refinished, and the sight remounted you're got more money and aggravation in it than its worth.  Plus if you have a field barrel with the screw in chokes, you'll be giving that up.  What choke will it be once its cut down? Probably more than "open" and that's not good.  A used 18.5" barrel should be around $65 or less.

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=454790961

 

There you go.  About $90 shipped to your door.  Its a factory barrel with a cylinder bore (medium choke, as you probably know), bead sight, and it's brand new.

 

Shell holders are ok.  Honestly if you don't get it done with 4+1 you probably aren't going to, but there's nothing wrong with having it. I don't use them, so I don't have any recommendations.

 

Here's where you spend the money:

 

http://www.surefire.com/illumination/weaponlights/shotgun-forend.html

 

Handling a long gun and a flashlight sucks, especially for a pump.  A built in light that can be activated and deactivated without moving your firing grip is the most important upgrade you'll make.  I'd do that before anything else.

 

I can put up a picture of my home defense shotgun when I get home, but its pretty simple.  A basic Remington 870, the surefire foregrip, a sling, and a butler creek folding stock that came with it from the factory.  It was my patrol shotgun while I was in uniform.

[Drifter 851]

Right now it's got a factory modified choke so it doesn't have the screw in choke tubes in this barrel it has at the moment. Good point about the safety, right now it's easy to flip with my thumb with my right hand in the firing position, but would not be thumb accessible with a pistol grip stock. I'll have to give that some more thought thanks for pointing that out.

 

When you get a chance snap a pic or two of your home defense shotgun I'd love to see how you outfitted yours.

[Docwagon 856]

I took a photo, but for some reason my phone isn't uploading it to my photobucket account.

 

Anyway, its a 18.5" barrel fixed choke Remington 870.  Some people really prefer Remington over Mossberg, but the only reason I went Remington is because I originally bought it for patrol and my dept only authorizes Remingtons.

 

The stock is a Butler Creek folding stock with a pistol grip.  I wouldn't say this is mandatory on a dedicated home defense gun, and I wouldn't put it on a Mossberg (safety location, as mentioned above).  The folding stock is more for clearing houses with tight stairwells and the like.  However it also allows it to fit in my in-wall safe, so that's a bonus.  It does hold 3 extra shells, but they are slow to get to and not as good as a dedicated speed feed stock or side saddle.

 

The fore end is the surefire one with the light built in.

 

Then a three point sling.  I like the 3 point because you can let it hang if you have to do something with both hands, but its immediately back in the fight if you need it.

 

That's it.  Nothing fancy.

[Docwagon 856]

[Drifter 851]

I really like the looks of the surefire forend, I'm just having such a hard time swallowing the price tag for it is all I did find it on Amazon for the Mossberg 500 for $277 which is cheaper than most places, but still....that's a lot of cash.

[McNasty 260]

Had a chance to shoot a h&k vp9? I'm still waiting for the right time to buy and after all my research it seems this is preferred by most over the m&p9 I thought I was going to buy. Probably going to pick one up for Christmas

[Docwagon 856]

I really like the looks of the surefire forend, I'm just having such a hard time swallowing the price tag for it is all I did find it on Amazon for the Mossberg 500 for $277 which is cheaper than most places, but still....that's a lot of cash.

 

Buy once, cry once.  It's well worth it, and a cheap light isn't going to hold up to the recoil of a shotgun.  Having the mounted light is sooo superior to trying to juggle a light with a long gun, and the Surefire is the cleanest and best way to integrate one that I'm aware of.

 

Had a chance to shoot a h&k vp9? I'm still waiting for the right time to buy and after all my research it seems this is preferred by most over the m&p9 I thought I was going to buy. Probably going to pick one up for Christmas

 

 

I've dry fired one at the insistence of a gun store clerk.  Its a nice trigger.  Almost as good as the Walther PPQ.  However, I never consider H&K for my own purposes.  One, the magazine release on the trigger guard is so foreign to me.  If its the only handgun you're going to train hard with, no big deal.  Since I have to maintain proficiency with the Glock, I'm not switching back and forth.  Two, no factory night sights.  Three, expensive for what you get.  In the same price range, I vastly prefer Sig as a better bargain.

 

Look at the Sig P320 if you're looking at an upper end polymer striker fired, and also a Walther PPQ.  The Sig will have factory night sights at a lower price point than the H&K without and the trigger is very similar.  The PPQ is the best striker fired pistol trigger I've ever felt.  The M&P is a fine pistol as well, it'll probably do everything you want it to do, and with an Apex trigger kit is a pretty nice trigger.

[Docwagon 856]

Family photo:

 

[Jason 1,245]

Family photo:

That's a good looking family.

[Docwagon 856]

DIY Shoot-N-C targets:

 

[Docwagon 856]

Holy shit, I forgot what it's like being around Arabs with guns.  Zero fucking discipline.

 

It's been a long time since I just flat out refused to train someone who wanted it.  I actually don't like to train people, but I like to introduce people to firearms and the culture, so if asked I will do a basic class.  Young Arabic girl (related to my wife) wanted to learn while visiting.  The third time she pointed the gun at someone because "it isn't loaded" I fought every instinct I had to punch her in her face and told her we were done.  She didn't get to fire a single live round because she couldn't listen, couldn't stop playing with the gun, and had no interest in learning anything other than pulling the trigger a bunch of times.  It was like the worst of an American teenager combined with the worst of Arabic culture.

 

Gah.  

[McNasty 260]

Not that it's something to laugh about, but I always get a kick out of the documentaries that I watch where US soldiers who are supposed to be training afghans, iraqis, etc, all complain about how stupid some of them are with guns.  As soon as they see something move, no matter how far away, they hip fire their entire clip at some shadow 400 yards away lol.  Imbeciles.

[Docwagon 856]

Trained vs Practiced:

 

 

 

Just a reminder. Practice in and of itself will not make you a good shooter. You may be simply ingraining bad habits. The guy on the far left has his target at 5yd and can't keep it all on the over-sized silhouette. I give him credit for trying, at least he's off the couch and at the range. How much better could he be if he hired someone for a few hours to show him the fundamentals, though? The desire to improve is probably there, unless he just likes making money into smoke and noise, but obviously he needs some training. The fellow on the far right keeps them on paper and is probably better prepared than the majority of folks but again, do you think he's had any training? Or a self taught shooter with some natural talent? How quickly could he screw his group size down if he had someone coach him for a bit?

How many people chase hardware before they get the software right? Spending $600 on the next toy, but spending $0 to learn how to use it right?

[Docwagon 856]

New gun inbound.  Should arrive Tuesday or Wednesday.  Savor the anticipation.

[Docwagon 856]

New gun inbound.  Should arrive Tuesday or Wednesday.  Savor the anticipation.

 

Supposed to be in the store today.  Are you savoring?

[Jason 1,245]

Supposed to be in the store today. Are you savoring?

I'm curious.

[Docwagon 856]

I'm curious.

 

Yay!  Someone cares.  

 

It's in the store.  I'm going to pick it up tomorrow morning so I can get some range time with it as well.

[Docwagon 856]

I recently purchased a police trade in P229 from Sportsman's Outdoor Super Store.  Indy Trading Post took care of the transfer (their FFL was already on file) and I picked it up this morning.  ITP was out of .357 Sig, so a quick jaunt over to Beech Grove Firearms for two boxes of Remington 125gr FMJ and back to ITP to hit the range.  ITP just upgraded their range lighting, and its a much nicer place to shoot for groups now.

First off, here's the gun:



It's got some holster wear, but nothing that suggests it was abused.  The rails are in good shape, and while it was a bit dirty it was lubed.  It came with two factory 12 round magazines.  I put some grease on the rails and shot 100 rounds.

I had no idea what to expect from the .357 Sig cartridge, as I'd never shot one.  I had been around them during a few IDPA shoots in the early 2000's and knew they were loud and had a bit of muzzle blast, but that was about it.  So, I hung up a Dirty Bird target and ran it out to 7 yards, loaded up 5, and took my time.



That's just a fuzz over 1" center to center.  I was happy with that.  The first shot was in double action and is the one that's the second from the top.  The rest were shot single action.  I wheeled the target back in, took the photo, and then ran it to the back of the range.  I think that's about 12y.  I loaded up the two magazines and started speeding up a bit.



This was done at a steady cadence, I'd estimate about 3 shots per 2 seconds, as I got used to the reset point and the recoil.

I did throw 3 as shown, and it was due to two reasons  First, I was tightening my right hand too much and milked the grip a bit.  Second, I was overcompensating for recoil at first and pushing the gun down a bit.  The recoil is minimal.  Especially shooting it back to back with the .45 it was very soft shooting.  I didn't have a .40 with me to compare it to, but I'm confident its less recoil than the .40, but more than a 9mm.  While it is noisy, its all bark and no bite from the shooter's end.  I had planned to get a .40 barrel for this gun, and I still may, but I'm going to give serious consideration to the .357 Sig.

Then it was time to play with the Haley Tactical targets I downloaded and printed.





I ran this out to about 4 yards and started at the bottom.  On the bottom row I shot the first shot double action then tried to shoot the same dot again in single action, then move down the line in single action.  The next two row ups I sped up a bit and tried to put one in each dot, but was getting further out than I wanted.  You can see #5 is closer to the bottom row than the row I was shooting at, so I slowed down a bit.  I started on the next to the top line, got the first 3 in the dot and then put the second two a little low.  I was getting tense and again my grip was too tight.  I didn't shoot the top row as it was super close to the hanger and I didn't want to accidentally shoot the range's hardware.


Between shooting those lines, I shot a transition drill on this target, which I hung on the other side of the target hanger.  The upper left circle is shot in double action, then work my way clockwise around the others in single action.  Yes, the top have 5 each and the bottom only have 2.  I ran out of ammo during the last cycle.  The black circles are 2" across.



So, all in all I'm well satisfied with this gun.  It's right up there with my P220, and this is hard for me to admit but I think I might shoot this one better, at least at slow fire.  I've been a single stack .45 fan for so long and I've got so much invested in my P220 and 1911 that its a difficult prejudice to overcome and say "this is probably better."  But this gun has the potential to be better.  I won't know for sure until I get a holster and get to the outdoor range where I can do some more instinctive shooting at speeds, work the steels, etc.  I suspect the factory Sig sights on the P229 are more precise for slow fire, but will not be as fast and easy to acquire as the Trijicon HD's on my current EDC, the P220.  The reduced recoil is noticeable, though, and I'm curious to see how my split times will be.

The trigger is exactly what all the classic P-series Sigs have.  A heavy but smooth double action with a clean break and an imperceptible amount of over travel.  This Sig does not have the Short Reset Trigger, which I'm a fan of, and I'll probably upgrade it if I get serious about carrying it.

The grip is the standard Sig pebble grain plastic, a lined front strap (horizontal lines instead of the vertical on the P220), and oddly there's a lanyard attachment point.  I've never noticed this on other Sigs, but admittedly don't normally look for it, so I'm not sure if this is standard on the P229 or the PD ordered them this way.

All in all, its the got the quality feel I expect from a Sig, it functions like it should, it feels good in the hand, and it shoots quite nicely.  I'm happy.

Oh, and just to drive a few select people nuts:

It's combat accurate.
It's a tack driver.
Anything cheaper sucks and will get you killed.
Anything more expensive is for snobs and show offs.
.357 Sig is the best caliber, and whatever you carry sucks.

[JsinOwl 644]

So what do you do with all the guns you don't carry? Like, what's the future of that sleek little LCR?

[Jason 1,245]

Very nice. Looks as though you and the pistol get along well.

[Docwagon 856]

So what do you do with all the guns you don't carry? Like, what's the future of that sleek little LCR?

 

I still carry the LCR.  It's my backup gun and I carry it in an ankle holster.

 

As far as the handguns I don't carry any longer, most of them sit in the safe and see the occasional range day for fun.

 

I carry my P220 daily.

I carry my LCR almost daily.

 

I carry my P245 occasionally.  Generally in situtions where I would have previously used the LCR as a primary.  Once the weather breaks and I start jogging again, for example.

 

My revolvers pretty much sit in the safe except for range time.  I sold the Security Six after buying the Match Champion, as I liked the MC more and didn't need two guns that were nearly identical spec wise (both 4" .357 revolvers).

 

I *never* carry my 1911, and its a safe queen.  I seldom even take it to the range.  I love it, but I can't carry it due to work restrictions.  I have shot my Glock 22 former duty pistol exactly once since I had the trigger job done.  I would sell it except its got my police department's initials in the serial number (they were ordered that way) and I think it'll make a neat heirloom for my son one day.

[Docwagon 856]

I really wanted to get to the outdoor range today, but rainy rainy rain.  I'm not dedicated enough to voluntarily train in the rain any longer, gave that mess up with the military.

 

I did take the opportunity to get some reloading in, though.  130-ish .45's loaded up.  That replaces most of what I shot at the last two indoor range sessions for that caliber.  I've gotten a shit ton of brass saved up from range pickups now. I can probably load another 500 or so before I have to buy any more bullets and am good on primers, powder, and brass for awhile.

[Docwagon 856]

I picked up a .40 S&W barrel for the P229 today.  This is cool for two reasons.  One, I can shoot the range's ammunition when I go practice, so $$$ savings, and I've got a lot of carry ammo and practice ammo of my own in this caliber.  I also have the stuff to reload it.  .357 Sig has a reputation as being a difficult round to reload, and if you don't do it right then the bullets can move back in the case as the ones above it are fired, resulting in a cartridge with higher pressures and a blown up gun and/or injury.  I will not be reloading .357 Sig both out of concerns for safety and due to the extra steps it takes to do it correctly not being worth my time.  I can make a lot more of the other calibers in the same time.

 

The sucky thing about the .357 Sig is a lot of the factory loads from the big name manufacturers are watered down.  They do this as a cost savings measure.  Instead of designing a projectile for .357, they just use their 124 gr 9mm projectile.  These projectiles are designed to open up at a certain velocity.  If you pushed them as fast as the .357 is capable of, they would open too soon or fragment, reducing penetration.  So, they water them down so that they aren't much faster than 9mm +P ammo.  There are specialty shops like Cor-bon and Buffalo Bore who load it like its supposed to be loaded, but then you get into the issue of training with one type of round but carrying something different.

[Docwagon 856]

I now own 2 Sig P245s.  I found a good deal on a nickle 2-tone and...yeah.