Doc's firearms thread

[Docwagon 856]

I have that exact same Marlin 60. My Mom got it for my dad as a anniversary gift back in the late 60's. That's been one of the most trouble free reliable target rifles I have ever owned.

 

Yeah, they were everywhere before the Ruger 10-22 started taking a bite of the market.  Mine is a "Western Auto Parts" branded example of the store specific runs Marlin used to do.  I still use mine to shoot rabbits out of the garden, and when my son is big enough to graduate from his Rascal single shot .22 I'll be passing it along to him.

[Drifter 851]

It's funny to see guns stamped with that Western on them, my 12g is one such gun which has that Western stamp on it. It took me awhile to figure out exactly what that was when I was trying to research it. Ended up finding out it was actually a Mossberg but sold through Western Auto back in the 60's. Much simpler time back then when you could but guns at places like that.

[Docwagon 856]

It's funny to see guns stamped with that Western on them, my 12g is one such gun which has that Western stamp on it. It took me awhile to figure out exactly what that was when I was trying to research it. Ended up finding out it was actually a Mossberg but sold through Western Auto back in the 60's. Much simpler time back then when you could but guns at places like that.

 

Yeah, I've got a Sears shotgun made by Winchester and another auto parts store 16g shotgun as well.

[Docwagon 856]

Dry Firing as a training technique:

 

Dry firing is one of the most important things you can do if you want to be truly proficient with a handgun.  Almost no one can go to the range every day and fire live rounds.  How do you keep muscle memory in place between range trips?  Dry fire.

 

Dry fire can be done with almost any modern firearm.  The exceptions are rimfire, where some firearms will damage the firing pin and chamber with repeated dry firing.  Check your owner's manual, but I'm unaware of any modern centerfire that can't take dry firing.  Using a snap cap, which is an inert rubber and aluminum cartridge, can provide piece of mind and prevent damage to those that can't be dry fired.

 

How to get the most out of your practice:

 

1) Make DAMN SURE the handgun has no live ammo.  Do not have live ammo nearby.  Make sure your magazine is empty, make sure the chamber is empty both visually (look) and physically (stick your finger in the chamber).  Point the weapon in a safe direction and pull the trigger.  NOW you are sure its empty and can continue with the drill.

 

2) Tell yourself what proper form looks like.  This is not about just pulling the trigger and ingraining bad habits.  This is about reinforcing good habits.  You are not in a hurry.  Are you getting a good sight picture?  Is your support hand holding tighter than your dominant hand?  Is your grip allowing the pistol to naturally point straight?  Now press the trigger.  Did the front sight move?  Did you shove the gun in any way?  Without recoil, you'll be able to see exactly how you are muscling the gun around if you are.

 

3) Balance an empty case on the slide of the gun.  Repeat dry firing.  Did the case fall off?  If so, you're shoving the gun at some point.  If no, you're doing it smooth, continue on.

 

Once you get your trigger and grip control down, you can start doing draw drills and the like, but that's another topic.  Right now you are diagnosing and correcting mistakes in your form.  This will pay off on the range and in real life, because every bullet goes where the barrel is pointing as the bullet exits.  The most common cause for misses is muscling the gun around and shoving it off target as you fire.

 

The most common mistakes are:

 

Milking:  This will result in misses low and left for a right handed shooter.  Milking is squeezing all of your fingers on your dominant hand as you pull the trigger.  This is why you want to hold lightly with your strong hand and isolate your trigger finger.

 

Shoving:  This will result in misses low.  Shoving is anticipating the recoil and pushing the gun down and forward to fight the recoil affect too early.  This will be easy to see in dry fire, because you'll lose sight of the front sight as you shove.

 

That's what causes most misses.   Many people blame sight alignment or believe the sights on their gun are off, when in fact its these grip mistakes causing them to shoot consistently but inaccurately.

[Playertd 177]

Nice post, I was practicing dry firing all winter, it paid off for me. First trip to the range this spring I was shooting much better than last fall.

 

I never put a case on top of the slide, that makes sense though, will have to try it!

[Drifter 851]

 

Dry fire can be done with almost any modern firearm.  The exceptions are rimfire, where some firearms will damage the firing pin and chamber with repeated dry firing

 

 

Thats some good info Doc, because even as much as I am into firearms...I always thought/heard dry firing was a "no-no". never realized it was just rimfires.

[Docwagon 856]

Thats some good info Doc, because even as much as I am into firearms...I always thought/heard dry firing was a "no-no". never realized it was just rimfires.

 

Yeah, very few rimfires can be safely dry fired without a snap cap.  An appropriately sized dry wall anchor will work as a snap cap for rimfires if you don't have one.  As I'm sure you know, rimfires are touched off by pinching the rim between the hammer and the edge of the chamber (hence 'rimfire').  The hammer has the mechanical ability to keep going and will contact the edge of the chamber.  After repeated strikes, the hammer will start to mushroom or bend, and the chamber will start to get a dimple.  Eventually it won't put enough pressure on the rim to set off the primer, and the firearm won't touch off cartridges reliably any longer.  There are a few rim fires that have a mechanical hammer stop that make them safe to dry fire, but they are the exception to the rule at this point.  The owner's manual will say if they are safe to dry fire.

 

Center fire relies on a primer in the center of the bottom of the cartridge, and there's nothing there but empty air when there's no cartridge, so the tip of the firing pin has nothing to strike against.  The firing pin does have a stop, of course, but it strikes the stop regardless of if it hits a primer or not.  The firearm is designed for that stop to be struck.  Some early firearms with fixed firing pins on the hammer could supposedly crack with repeated dry firing, hence both the historic warning against dry firing and the admonishment of "modern firearm".  Modern design uses a transfer bar (or a striker) and doesn't suffer from that flaw.

[Docwagon 856]

I got to play with a PS90 today, 16" barrel, factory red dot, semi-auto only....and its sexy.  I can see where this would be a fantastic CQB weapon, even with the 16" barrel.  I don't think I want to put the money into buying it, magazines, ammo, etc. for the platform...but it was sexy.

[Docwagon 856]

Safety quiz:

 

1) Can a firearm discharge without the trigger being pressed?  If so, how?

 

2) If you drop a  handgun, is it better to attempt to catch it or to let it fall?

 

3) You want to inspect the bore of a weapon, what's the best way to safely look down the barrel?

 

4) Who can call a cease fire on a public range?

 

5) What's the purpose of a sand barrel in the context of firearms?

[Jason 1,245]

I'm far from an expert, but I'll give it a shot. I do want to say I'm very careful about gun safety hunting. My dad always taught me... Never point a gun at something you don't want to kill. Never hand someone a loaded firearm. Treat every gun as of its loaded. (he taught me alot more than that, but you get the idea)

1- from my understanding if dropped a discharge is possible but rare, and even more rare in modern firearms.

Perhaps if your "buddy" did a trigger job or something making the gun faulty it would be even more likely. A shitty gunsmith fucks up something.

The gun overheats, but that's more the ammo getting hot that the gun magically firing.

2- don't know... If you drop it and try to catch it you could potentially pull the trigger trying to catch it, so I say don't try, it's less likely the gun will discharge from the fall. Just try to get the fuck out of the way.

3- I always make sure the gun is unloaded and look down the chamber from the action. If it's a bolt action rife for instance, I would cycle the bolt, then look in the chamber, then remove the bolt and look down the barrel from where the bolt was.

4- I would think anyone

5- not familiar with this. Sounds like a barrel of sand to safely shoot into.... Sand is very dense and would stop a bullet fast. Don't know for sure.

[Docwagon 856]

Jsyn is close.

 

1)  A dropped firearm MAY fire, particularly old school revolvers with the firing pin on the hammer if it falls on the hammer.  However, it is much more common with long guns, which often have a free floating firing pin.  The firing pin does not have a block, such as a drop safe handgun has, and as the name implies it floats freely in the bolt.  The AR-15, the Remington 870, and many others all have a free floating firing pin and can discharge if struck hard enough to give the pin enough inertia to touch off the primer.  This is why these weapons shouldn't be stored with one in the chamber, and also why military primers are traditionally harder than civilian ammo primers.

 

 The second common way is a "slam fire".  This is where the firing pin gets stuck with the tip sticking out of the bolt face, so when the bolt is closed the firing pin strikes the primer.  A bolt action rifle, for example, with a bit of debris in the firing pin channel.  You work the bolt rapidly, and the gun discharges.  A pump shotgun could discharge when you work the pump for the same reason.  This can cause a 'run away gun' in a semi-auto or auto, where the gun will fire until the magazine is empty as the bolt fires every round as its chambered.

 

Lesson:  When closing the action on a firearm, make sure its pointed in a safe direction, as its possible to discharge the weapon without touching the trigger as the action closes.

 

2) Modern thinking is let it drop.  Modern handguns are drop safe and the possibility of a discharge is much smaller than the possibility of accidentally pulling the trigger trying to catch it.

 

3) While that would work with a bolt gun or inline muzzle loader many guns cannot be viewed from the action end.  A chamber flag is the preferred method.  Once the gun is empty, both chamber and either magazine removed (external) or empty (internal), a chamber flag is inserted.  This is a small device that is inserted in the chamber, it will not go in in there's a cartridge there, and also physically blocks the firing pin.  This renders the weapon mechanically incapable of firing, even if there was ammo in the magazine, as it can't be chambered and the firing pin can't hit it.  Fiber optic chamber flags also create an easy way to illuminate the barrel, simple shine a flashlight on the end that's outside the chamber and it will light up the barrel.

 

4) Yup, anyone who sees something unsafe has the authority and the duty to call a ceasefire.  Most ranges will eject anyone who fails to honor a ceasefire, if not ban them.

 

5) Yes, with the purpose being to catch the bullet if a slam fire were to occur.  Sand barrels are often literally barrels of sand, but can also be a block of polymer in a steel can, a stack of phone books in a milk crate, etc.  The purpose is when loading and unloading a weapon capable of slam firing to put the muzzle in the sand barrel just in case.

[Docwagon 856]

Police trade in Glocks for sale at a good price:  http://centerfiresystems.com/GLOCK-22PTI.aspx

 

$370 with night sights and 3 magazines is a good deal.  This is everything you need for a "do it all gun", small enough to carry, big enough for home defense, 3 mags for range time, etc.  The .40 is a good round, if you do your job it will do its job.

[Docwagon 856]

 

 

...here's what's on my short list to acquire in 2014:

 

The new Match Champion Ruger GP100:

 

http://www.ruger.com/products/gp100/specSheets/1754.html

 

 

Ummm, sexy. 

 

I've made arrangements to buy the first one a local gun store could get...I just got the notification that their distributor got one and it will be on its way soon.  In a week or two I should have it.

[Docwagon 856]

 

Mine, mine, all mine!!!!

 

Range review to follow.

[Docwagon 856]

So, after some dry firing, here are my initial impressions:

 

1) The trigger is great out of the box. Ruger says they do a trigger job on these before they leave the factory and I believe it. Its silky smooth.

2) The sights are dovetailed so you can swap them out if you want, but the factory set up is probably going to work fine for me. Front fiber optic, not too bulky and not too thin. Goldilocks must have designed these sights, because they are juuuust right. If you wanted a bull's eye pistol, they are probably too bulky, but for carry or IDPA type competition they seem like they'll be perfect.

3) The trigger. Its so good I had to mention it again.

4) The Hogue wooden grips aren't as bulky as I thought they would be from the photos. I'd already planned to swap the out...now I'm not too sure. They feel good in the hand, so we'll see.

5) Its better looking in person than it is in the photos. The lettering is a bit more subdued in regular light than it appears in the photos.

6) It feels lighter than I thought it would be. I expected a stainless steel 4" barrel revolver with wooden grips to be on the hefty side. I don't know if its truly that much lighter thanks to the slab sided barrel and half underlug, or if it just balances so well if feels lighter.

7) At the $700-$750 these seem to be selling for, this is a lot of gun for the money. At $800-$900 you start wondering if its that big of a step over the standard GP100 with some custom work. At $700, its well worth it.

 

After seeing how light it feels, I was curious, and I weighed it.  36.5 oz empty is what my scale says.  Ruger says 38 oz, but I'm sure there's some variation in the wooden grips and my scale may not be dead nuts on.  Interestingly, this is the exact same weight as my 3" GP100 Wiley Clapp.  By slab siding the barrel and reducing the underlug length, Ruger has made the 4.2" barrel weigh and balance the same as the 3" barrel.  That's probably the reason it feels so quick in the hand.  I also weighed my 4" security Six, and it came in at 39 oz, a bit heavier.  The extra weight is in the frame, though, you can see the top strap is much thicker and wider.  The Security Six already has the half lug and the barrel isn't as thick as the GP100.

 

 

 

[Docwagon 856]

Another good deal on a complete carry package:

 

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/sig-sauer-sp2022-two-tone-9mm-w-siglite-night-sights-e2022-9-tss.html

 

$389.99 for a Sig SP2022 with night sights and a holster.  I believe these come with 2 magazines, they only get 3 on a gov't purchase order, but I could be wrong and the ad doesn't say for sure.

[Docwagon 856]

 

Full range report soon.  Too tired to do it tonight, but it shoots very nicely.  The grip takes a bit of getting used to, though.  It just feels very different than the Wiley Clapp grip, more like a semi-auto in that it doesn't flare out at the bottom like a traditional revolver grip, and it goes higher on the frame, which encourages a higher grip.  After the first 5 were I strung them a bit low, I got on target.  

[Docwagon 856]

As I've posted recently, I was able to finally get my grubby mitts on a GP 100 Match Champion.  I had put it on my short list for 2014 as soon as I'd seen it on Ruger's website, but my self control was sorely tempted by other firearms begging me to liberate them from their cold glass enclosures (looking at you Colt Commander and S&W E-Series).  I held firm(ish) and am happy with the results.

Appearance:



Ruger is still not the most refined handgun maker out there.  If a stray tool mark, electric pen markings on the inside of the crane, etc. bother you then this may not be the gun for you to purchase.  Due to the stainless steel finish, its not easy to photograph, but I do have a light tool mark on the frame in front of the cylinder about 1/4" long.  Its not deep, but you can definitely see it at a certain angle. There's also a slight tool mark near the muzzle.  The inside of the crane is hand numbered, as are all modern Ruger GP100's.

The wooden grip sits higher on the frame than traditional Ruger grips.  There is a small gap between the wood and the frame at the very top, perhaps 1/16" of an inch.  It appears to be on purpose, as it fits tight everywhere else, and I wonder if its not set back to reduce the chances of it cracking but to still let you get a higher grip on the gun.  Either way, not aesthetically pleasing.  Here you can see the gap, as well as another tool mark:



Now, once you put away your microscope and back up 2', its beautiful.  None of the imperfections are visible from any distance, and blessedly there's no big lawyer roll mark on the barrel.  There is a very small "read the manual" on the bottom of the barrel, but on the sides it just has the "Ruger GP100 .357" on the right and "Match Champion" on the left.

Function:

It shoots.  It shoots very well.



Our qualifications run 5 shot strings for off-duty/backup quals (plainclothes can use off duty guns on duty) so that J-frames and the like don't have to reload in the middle of a string.  Headshots from 7 yards using cheap-o UMC .38 standard pressure.  I did notice a difference in accuracy between the .38 UMC vs my handloads and factory Blazer Brass .357.  At first I thought it was the ammunition, but in hindsight I'm thinking it was me.  The .38 was such low recoil, I was shooting it faster and that opened up the groups a bit.

The fiber optic front sight is green in most lighting situations, although in very bright light it appears yellow.  It is very quick to acquire and is very much oriented toward fast acquisition as opposed to long distance target shooting, as it is a bit bulky.  I didn't shoot any further than 25y, and it was easy to keep everything in a half sized torso target, but I'm not sure I'd want to try a Texas Star at much beyond that.

The trigger is smooooth.  Blindfolded I don't think I could tell the factory slicked Match Champion from my gunsmith slicked Wiley Clapp.  Speaking of which, I did a side by side comparison of the two.



Yes, there's only 11 holes for each one.  I was running low on handloads and with the second string fully loaded I only had two cartridges left so I downloaded each one round.  As you can see, the MC is a bit tighter, which is to be expected with the 4" barrel.  It was close though, you don't give up much with the 3".  I think if I took my time and staged the trigger, the potential accuracy is the same.  I know I've shot my WC tighter than that in the past with careful slow aimed fire, but the 4" sight radius lets you line up a little faster and make those hits a little faster.  I think I prefer the WC's brass dot front sight, though, it seems to be easier to focus on the target past the sight, the fiber optic can glow so bright as to capture your attention more than the target.  I'm sure this can be overcome with familiarization, but it was an issue on my first outing.

The second issue to get used to was the grip.  Its different.  It doesn't feel like a revolver, there's very little flare at the bottom compared to traditional "plow handle" or even Bisley stocks/grips.  It starts off thicker at the top and stays that thickness, with a slight palm swell in the center, and it comes up higher on the frame than traditional Ruger grips.  Wiley Clapp on the left, MC on the right:




That angle shows you the difference in thickness.  Calipers put it right about 0.45" inches.  My hand puts it at "too thick".  With my hand size and grip, with the Wiley Clapp the trigger naturally falls right in the middle of the second pad of my trigger finger.  With the Match Champion grips, it moves it to the pad just before the last joint, and as I pull the trigger slides into the joint.  It makes it feel heavier and makes it easier to pull off target.  It *does* give the webbing of your hand more protection from recoil, so there is a benefit if you have a long range day and are running full house .357's, and if you have bigger hands, you may very well prefer the Match Champion grips.  For me I think I'll probably swap them out for more traditionally shaped revolver grips.

I also think its why I started the day shooting a bit low:





Summary:

Overall, I'm very happy with this revolver.  With a simple grip change, it will be a fine duty pistol and provide me with a 4" version of my Wiley Clapp.  If you shop around, you can pick one up for about $150 more than a standard GP100 4".  For that $150 you get a smoother trigger, dovetailed fiber optic sights, weight reduction with the half lug and lightened cylinder, no lawyer roll mark visible on the sides of the barrel, and the sheer sexiness of the Match Champion.  That's tough to say no to, if you can find one.

[Docwagon 856]

I'm going to get to try the new Sig P227 in a few minutes.  I'm going shooting with a Trooper buddy of mine.

[Docwagon 856]

The P227 is like every Sig I've shot...very nice.  It feels very similar to my P220, just a bit thicker in the grip, and I shot it just fine.  We swapped back and forth shooting my P220 and his P227 and both agreed its pretty much a wash, it boils down to if you want a single stack or a double stack grip.  They both fit the same holsters, they both have the short reset trigger, they both have the same factory sight set up (although mine no longer has the factory sights) and they both just feel good in your hand.

 

If I didn't already have a P220, I'd be on it like a fat kid on a cupcake.  As it is, I think I'm sticking with my P220.  I can't justify buying another handgun and spare magazines just for two more rounds of capacity.

[Docwagon 856]

I'm reviving this thread a bit.  First off, I want to post an interesting video on presentation (aka draw stroke):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URLTraSQvmE

 

Next I want to talk about an experiment I'm going to do.  I recently read "Talent is Overrated...." which introduced me to the concept of deliberate practice.  http://www.amazon.com/Talent-Overrated-Separates-World-Class-Performers/dp/1591842948

 

The simplest explanation is breaking down a task into its components, practicing each component based on which is currently holding your performance back, practicing the whole skill, evaluating, then going back to component practice.There's a bit more to it, of course, such as seeking out experts and comparing your techniques and results with theirs, metacognition, etc.

 

I immediately began to wonder how I could apply this two things I always want to get better at.  Interviewing and shooting.  Since this is the firearms thread, you can figure which I'll be talking about.

 

So, this week, I'm practicing nothing but the draw to the point where I touch the trigger.  No dry firing, no real shooting, nothing but presentation drills.  I'll let you know how it goes.

[Docwagon 856]

Ok, this is hard.  The book warns that deliberate practice is 'not inherently enjoyable' and its right.  Its boring and its tough to maintain concentration and not just start going through the motions.  I resorted to talking to myself, sort of coaching myself out loud.

 

I've broken my presentation down into the following components:

1) Draw: breaking the retention holster open, assuming strong hand grip, and pulling pistol.

2) Catch: meeting the gun with my support hand on the upswing.

3) Ring (the doorbell): finishing upswing, pushing gun onto target

4) Press: begin trigger press

 

I practiced at about 5 yards in front of a full length mirror, using my reflection as a target.  All draws are from my regular EDC holster with the retention strap secured.

 

After about 10 minutes I noticed my mind wandering.  That's when I developed the 4 steps above and started talking to myself, saying each component out loud and evaluating how the presentation was going at that point.  I slowed down and did not rush for speed.  I did each motion very deliberately, probably taking 5-6 seconds for a complete draw stroke and really paid attention to the little fundamentals, making sure my dominant hand wasn't too tight, sight alignment, catching the trigger at the correct place, etc.  After maybe 50 deliberate draws (approximate, I didn't count, just did what felt right) I'd do 4-5 for speed, trying to go just a little faster each time.  Then on my last "fast" one I'd look and see what I was wrong, and then focus heavily on that component the next set of deliberate draws.

 

I really hope I can keep this up.  I think its going to make a big difference if I can.  However, it is going to take a lot of self control and sustained motivation as it is *not* inherently enjoyable and is also hard work, mentally.  I sweated through my t-shirt while doing it, and the physical component is very limited.  The book warns that even top tier performers (like olympic level performers) can only maintain concentration for 1-1.5 hours tops.  They may train on components 3 hours a day, but will do it in one hour blocks, with the time between on pure physical conditioning and the like that require less mental involvement.

 

 

 

 

Results of first day:

 

Baseline:  After 2 minutes of presentation practice so I'm not comparing cold to warm:

 

Beginning of Day 1: Best time 2.42 (average 2.50)

End of Day 1: Best time 2.12  (average 2.22)

[Docwagon 856]

Beginning of day 2:

 

3 cold presentations:

2.28 seconds

2.06

2.05

 

30 minutes deliberate practice

 

5 presentations

 

1.94 seconds

2.02

2.74 (shirt tangled)

2.19

1.98

[Docwagon 856]

I went to the range today and at 5 yards repeated my drill with live fire.  My first shot was 1.82 seconds and in the "A" box.  Second shot was 1.85 seconds, also in the "A" box.

 

I ended up shooting 100 rounds,  all my reloads.  A 230 gr plated FMJ over 4.4 grains of Winchester Super Target.  About 50 draw and fire one shot.  About 30 draw, one body shot and one head shot.  About 20 with an instructor watching me at my request to see if he could spot any flaws in my technique.

 

First target of the day (note I used both sides, so some holes are "in" and some are "out" from the perspective of this shot.  Almost all "A" box hits.

 

 

I did start stringing left as I started getting tired.  I know why, gripping too hard with my right hand.

[Docwagon 856]

Day 4:

 

Cold:

2.26 seconds

2.43 (blech)

1.92

1.87

1.84

1.78

1.77

1.84

 

30 minutes deliberate practice

 

1.91 seconds

1.96

1.79

1.93

1.93

1.67 

1.70

1.75

1.75

 

 

I need to work on the dragging it from the holster.  I'm lifting too high and costing myself time.  I use a retention holster, so I have the extra step of breaking the thumb strap, but even with that handicap I've got a lot of work to do to get on pace with these guys.