Doc's firearms thread

[Docwagon 856]

I rented an Springfield XD(M) .45 today at a local indoor range.  I compared it back to back with my Sig P220 and while I won't be trading out of my Sig any time soon the XD was impressive.  If I were in the market for a polymer double stack pistol, I'd give it serious consideration.  I'm going to do a write up on it soon but I don't have the time right at the moment.

Highlights:

1) Smooth trigger for a striker fired gun.

2) 13+1 round capacity

3) Unobtrusive grip safety

4) Feels comfortable in my hand

 

Needs improvement;

1) Sights aren't the clearest

2) Trigger reset could be a shorter and a bit more positive

[Jason 1,245]

Nice! I was just looking at a xD 45, it was on sale for 487.

I'm not sure if it's to much for the wife to shoot though.

What's your impression on the recoil?

[Docwagon 856]

Nice! I was just looking at a xD 45, it was on sale for 487.

I'm not sure if it's to much for the wife to shoot though.

What's your impression on the recoil?

 

Well, that's a tough question.  I found it very controllable.  It was back on target before I had reset the trigger and was ready to fire again.  If it had better sights, I could probably have dumped the mag pretty quickly.  However I'm me, not you or your wife, and differences in hand size, grip technique, wrist strength, etc. may change that.

 

Also keep in mind that I shot the duty size 4.5" barrel.  There is a compact 3.8" barrel and a competition 5.5" barrel as well, and each will be a bit different.

 

*As a general rule* I find .45 APC to be a very easy to control caliber.  The recoil is more of a slow push than a quick snap.  However a 9mm *is* easier to tame and is more forgiving of an improper hold.  Improper holds happen to everyone, even people who know better, under stress we don't always do what we know we should.  As a prime example, I haven't been practicing as much lately because its SO FUCKING COLD.  I had to qualify Wednesday, and I didn't shoot like I wanted to.  I realized why.  I was gripping to hard with my strong hand instead of gripping lightly with it and hard with my support hand and stringing shots left.  Today I went to the indoor range to work on fundamentals to beat it back into my head and muscle memory. 

[Docwagon 856]

Today's chat will be on making a factory stock gun better.  Almost any factory firearm can be improved, because its built for anyone and everyone, not specific to you.  Changes in grip, trigger feel, sights, etc. can really make a difference in how you shoot a particular gun because of how it fits in your hand, how you see the sights, how intuitively the trigger resets for you, etc.

 

I took my Gen 3 Glock 22, a gun which was issued to be my the PD and that I bought when we went to Gen 4's and had a trigger job done and installed a grip angle adapter.  This is a gun that I normally shot grapefruit sized groups with at 7 yards.  I shrunk it by about half with $100 in modifications.

 

 

That is a 30 round group, 29 of which are in 3.9", 24 of which are in 2.4" group. Freehand, less than half a second between shots, 3 strings of 10. The one flier is 100% my fault because I wasn't ready for how short and light the followup shot was going to be at first. This was at 7 yards at an indoor range today using American Eagle 180gr FMJ.

 

 

The head shots are with a FNS-40, which I'll do a write up on when I have more time.  Same ammo, same range, etc.

 

 

..and finally, presentation drills with the P220.  This is going from the low ready to firing a single shot in double action as soon as you can find the front sight.  This drill is for speed, not pinpoint accuracy.  My instructors will say if everything is in the "A" box, you're going to slow and need to push yourself faster because at this close of a distance you need to get rounds on target fast.

 

That burned up my half hour by the time I picked up all my brass, so no accuracy drill with the P220 today.

[Docwagon 856]

OK, let me be real clear on this.  DON'T LEAVE YOUR FUCKING GUN WHERE A CHILD CAN FIND IT.  Even if you don't have kids but people with kids visit, DON'T LEAVE YOUR FUCKING GUN WERE A CHILD CAN FIND IT.

 

You know those stats the anti-gun folks love to spout about how your more likely to have an accidental injury or death in your home with a firearm than use it against an intruder?  You know how we like to think those stats are tainted and aren't true?  Well, I'd like to believe that they are fictional stats, too, but its really fucking hard when I see it with my own two eyes.  I'm currently running a 3:1 ratio for children shooting themselves with found guns vs a gun used in self defense, and I'm being generous and counting self defense shootings outside the home.  You want to know why?  BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE LEAVING THEIR FUCKING GUNS WHERE KIDS CAN FIND THEM.  2 have been their own kid.  1 has been a visiting kid.

 

This is entirely preventable.  How?  DON'T LEAVE YOUR FUCKING GUN WHERE A CHILD CAN FIND IT.

 

Guns belong in one of the following:

 

A secure container, such as a lock box, safe, or in wall unit.

In a holster

 

Quit being fucking cutesy with stash guns throughout the house like your fucking James Bond Ninja Assassin.  If you're concerned about a home invasion, install in wall units or simply carry it in a holster around the house.  That gun you think no one knows about because you put some screws under your end table and stuck the gun there?  A 3 year old can see that because he's short.  Under the sofa?  Kids crawl and kids roll toys under the sofa and go fishing for it.

 

I am seriously fucking tired of seeing children dead or maimed because of a group of assholes who can't be bothered to secure their guns or who are stashing guns so when the gub'mint comes to take their guns away they have an arsenal at arm's length to fight back.  I'm sick of these assholes setting the tone in gun control debates because its a real issue THAT'S COMPLETELY FUCKING PREVENTABLE.

 

If you are a paranoid tinfoil hat wearing asshole, don't buy a gun.  If you are an incompetent fucktard gangsta wannabe, don't buy a gun.  If you're not willing or able to have the logistics of safe storage, don't buy a gun.  You're fucking it up for responsible gun owners, your putting others at risk, and you're putting yourself at risk of serious legal and ethical consequences.

[Playertd 177]

I agree for the most part on your post....but what about simply storing guns AWAY from ammo and completely unloaded? I don't want to dump a lot of money into buying a huge ass safe that can store rifles and shotguns, much cheaper to get a small safe for ammo (which I do). An unloaded gun is as dangerous as a baseball bat IMO.

[Drifter 851]

I agree that 100% that people with small children need to make their guns safe so that kids in the house can not access them, but I do disagree with keeping a gun unloaded if it is for home defense. When a home intruder is breaking into your home with your wife and kids inside that is not the time to be taking time to try locate the magazine and load your gun. There are a great deal of makers these days of quick access handgun safes which you can keep right on the stand next to the bed so you can access your loaded home defense handgun and never have to worry about kids being able to access it.

 

Doc I know you know what they are, but for those that are not aware of what a quick access handgun safe is http://www.sentrysafe.com/Products/496/QAP1E_Quick_Access_Pistol_Safe

[Drifter 851]

Actually Doc I missed the part were you said "A secure container, such as a lock box, safe, or in wall unit." so you were probably talking about something like the quick access safe to being with. Sorry I missed that the first time I read it through somehow.

[Docwagon 856]

I agree for the most part on your post....but what about simply storing guns AWAY from ammo and completely unloaded? I don't want to dump a lot of money into buying a huge ass safe that can store rifles and shotguns, much cheaper to get a small safe for ammo (which I do). An unloaded gun is as dangerous as a baseball bat IMO.

 

Unloaded guns are the mechanical equivalent of Schrodinger's cat.  If you aren't observing the chamber, they have a tendency to not be unloaded.  I've had plenty of people who shot themselves with an unloaded gun, and I guarantee you every fucking one of them said "it won't happen to me" just like everyone who just read this post did.  Yet none of us are perfect, and all of us can be complacent.  That directly translates into the idea that an unloaded gun is as dangerous as a baseball bat can bite you in the ass.  Its a gun, treat it like a gun.

 

If you have multiple firearms, you can afford a safe or secure gun cabinet.

 

http://www.harborfreight.com/household/safes/59-digital-executive-safe-60289.html#.UyRMw_mKr2Y

 

$320,

 

http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/storage/safes-security/gun-safes/stack-on-14-gun-steel-security-cabinet-black-pad-bottom?infoParam.campaignId=T9F&gclid=CN6t49DMlL0CFYFhMgodgU0Aqg

 

$183.

 

http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/sentryreg;-safe-12-gun-cabinet?cm_mmc=feed-_-Home_and_Garden_Home%20Security-_-Stack-On-_-1028583&gdftrk=gdfV27960_a_7c2509_a_7c10868_a_7c1028583

 

$150.

 

My in wall unit for my home defense shotgun and assorted paraphernalia costs me $90.  http://www.factory-express.com/Product/STACK-ON-IWC-55-Security-Plus-In-Wall-Cabinet/40166?gclid=CMXniL7MlL0CFe5aMgodPSIAhA

 

All of these are less than the cost of a quality firearm.  If you have multiple rifles and shotguns, you can afford a way to secure them properly.  Get your priorities right and instead of buying yet another shiny toy, buy a way to protect your toys and those around you, then go back to buying toys.  You are doing your part to be RESPONSIBLE and keep them out of unauthorized hands and criminals hands. In the meantime, use the trigger lock that came with your gun or render it mechanically unable to fire.  Pump shotguns can have a bicycle cable lock or a zip tie ran through the action, for example.

[Docwagon 856]

I agree that 100% that people with small children need to make their guns safe so that kids in the house can not access them, but I do disagree with keeping a gun unloaded if it is for home defense. When a home intruder is breaking into your home with your wife and kids inside that is not the time to be taking time to try locate the magazine and load your gun. There are a great deal of makers these days of quick access handgun safes which you can keep right on the stand next to the bed so you can access your loaded home defense handgun and never have to worry about kids being able to access it.

 

Doc I know you know what they are, but for those that are not aware of what a quick access handgun safe is http://www.sentrysafe.com/Products/496/QAP1E_Quick_Access_Pistol_Safe

 

I would just add to stay away from the biometric safes.  If you are sweaty, bloody, got a cut earlier in the day, etc. they are not reliable.  I use a simple key.  When I'm in bed, the key's in the lock.  When I'm not, the key is not.

[Docwagon 856]

At an Indiana gun shop, all rounds were ejected from "unloaded guns" brought in to trade.

 

[Jason 1,245]

At an Indiana gun shop, all rounds were ejected from "unloaded guns" brought in to trade.

Wow...

[Jason 1,245]

Hey doc, did you ever get a ruger lcr?

I'm undecided between it and the Taurus 605 polymer.

Was looking at .357 with the obvious advantage of being able to shoot .38 for my wife to get used to shooting it.

So long story short, did you like the lcr if you did buy one.

[JsinOwl 644]

Hey doc, did you ever get a ruger lcr?

I'm undecided between it and the Taurus 605 polymer.

Was looking at .357 with the obvious advantage of being able to shoot .38 for my wife to get used to shooting it.

So long story short, did you like the lcr if you did buy one.

Did you not see his review on page 2 of this thread?

 

http://forevergaming.co.uk/index.php/topic/122-docs-firearms-thread/?p=4939

[Jason 1,245]

Did you not see his review on page 2 of this thread?

http://forevergaming.co.uk/index.php/topic/122-docs-firearms-thread/?p=4939

Nope. Thanks. Not sure how I missed it, even searched. Lol

Dumbass me.

[Jason 1,245]

Nice write up on the lcr. I gave it a serious look today, seems to fit all of my needs.

I was a little concerned about accuracy being a DAO pistol, but you seemed to have faired well. In a self defense situation are you really gonna have time to cock the hammer anyways, you know.

Thanks.

Edit: I may look into the new lcrx as it has a hammer. It's only available in .38+p right now, but that's probably fine for what I need. I would just feel more comfortable having the option on shooting SA if I wanted to.

[Docwagon 856]

Nice write up on the lcr. I gave it a serious look today, seems to fit all of my needs. I was a little concerned about accuracy being a DAO pistol, but you seemed to have faired well. In a self defense situation are you really gonna have time to cock the hammer anyways, you know. Thanks. Edit: I may look into the new lcrx as it has a hammer. It's only available in .38+p right now, but that's probably fine for what I need. I would just feel more comfortable having the option on shooting SA if I wanted to.

 

Get the hammerless.  You aren't cocking it in a self defense scenario and its possible to snag the hammer and fumble your draw if you pocket carry or deep conceal.

 

The LCR remains one of my favorite guns.  I let 2 guys shoot it today (pictures in a bit) and neither had any issues hitting a 8" plate at 10y with it the first time they shot it.  The trigger is sooo much smoother than a traditional DAO.

[Docwagon 856]

I went out and did some shooting today with the owners of a local gun store.  They have a nice setup.

 

 

 

The water puddle is about 100y downrange, which is as far as we shot today.  I hit 4/6 with my Security Six 4" revolver and my handloads on a human torso sized target at that range.  My reloads are soft, and I was having to hold the sights about a foot over the target's head to arc them in, but I was able to do it.

 

 

Lots of AR's.

 

 

Cold.  Must make fire.  I'm in the middle.

 

 

The three on the ground on the left are mine.  SAR-1 AK-47 clone, Marlin model 60 .22, and my M1903.

 

 

100y, 4/4 with the M1903 shooting freehand, standing, using only the sling for support.  The .30.06 knocked the target stand over after the 4th hit, lots of power behind that round.  The peep sights are fantastic at longer ranges, and the WWII reproduction sling makes it easy to apply tension with your elbow and steady the gun.

 

 

The back of the truck we rode out in.  I stood guard at the gas station while they went in to get drinks and sammichs.

[Docwagon 856]

Now, real quick, let me touch on why you should not plan to cock a revolver before a gun fight.

 

1) Time.  You should train for a double action trigger pull because it is much slower to cock the hammer before each shot.  Remember a revolver doesn't cock the hammer after each shot for you like a semi-automatic does.  While it is possible to learn to roll cock a revolver and be back in single action as you bring the sights back on target this is very much an advanced skill and one that requires significant amounts of time and practice to keep on top off.  The timing involved is precise, and you need to practice with the same gun, same ammo, etc.

 

2) You cocked the gun, didn't shoot, and the situation is ongoing.  There is no safety on a revolver.  Can you safely cover someone with it in single action mode?  Can you safely manuever an obstacle to get to cover?  Probably not.  A short super light trigger is not optimal for self defense scenarios just for this reason.

 

3) You didn't shoot and the situation is over.  Now you have a cocked gun in your hand, a live round under the hammer, and no mechanical decocker.  That means you have to hold the hammer with one thumb and pull the trigger, then gently lower the hammer.  That's easy to do, right?  Of course it is in an administrative situation.  It is as easy with the post-adrenaline dump shakes?  Will you even remember to do it in post confrontation mindset?  Maybe, maybe not, but you're significantly increasing your chances of having a negligent discharge.

 

 

 

On semi-autos with a decocker, always use the decocker.  As I've mentioned before, tell yourself out loud "decock and holster" until its so ingrained in you that you do it as part of the holstering motion without thinking of it.  I shot a Walther PPQ for the first time today.  I tried to hit the decocker, and of course it doesn't have one.  I also tried to decock an H&K striker fired gun that also doesn't have one.  Why?  Habit.

[Jason 1,245]

One more question. It's kinda a if you were me question. Lol

Would you buy the .357 just because the versatility of shooting a. 38 or just get the. 38 model and not concern yourself with shooting the. 357?

Keep in mind I don't currently own a. 357.

I'm personally thinking, just get the. 357 magnum and be done with it, but just wanted your thoughts after having shot it a bit.

[Jason 1,245]

Also I did read why you personally chose the one you did, just wondering after you've spent more time with it.

[Docwagon 856]

One more question. It's kinda a if you were me question. Lol

Would you buy the .357 just because the versatility of shooting a. 38 or just get the. 38 model and not concern yourself with shooting the. 357?

Keep in mind I don't currently own a. 357.

I'm personally thinking, just get the. 357 magnum and be done with it, but just wanted your thoughts after having shot it a bit.

 

If cost isn't a concern, go with the .357.  The added weight is negligible in terms of comfort and ease of carry, and will actually making shooting it a bit more pleasant.  I would still stick with .38+P for carry though.  The extra recoil and muzzle flash isn't worth the slightly increased FPS out of such a short barrel IMO.

[Jason 1,245]

Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

[Docwagon 856]

Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

 

No problem.  Let me know how you like it once you get it.

 

I've found the Winchester DPX-1 bonded 130gr .38+P to be good carry ammo for the LCR.  Recoil is easy to control, its accurate, and the bullet design is a win.  With lighter weight bullets, you want mass retention for penetration.  (Actually you want that with all bullets, but it matters a lot more in bullets that are already light before shedding mass).  Bonded ammo means the jacket will stay on, helping to maintain mass and to resist fragmentation.

 

An example of where this could come into play.  Imagine someone is facing you with a knife or gun held forward.  Now imagine you shoot and it hits there forearm.  What I've seen from lightweight bullets is after it passes through the first thing it meets (the arm in this case) the bullet starts to come apart.  Even if it continues on and strikes the chest, its now in fragments and won't penetrate deeply enough to get to anything that matters.  9mm Gold Dot, for example.  Its a great round if the first thing it hits is what it needs to.  However in the scenario of an intermediate strike it sheds the jacket and the lead core fragments, resulting in about 1-3" of penetration when it hits the next part of the body.  That's clearly insufficient to reach vitals.  With bonded ammo, the penetration will be deeper, although it still may fail to reach vitals it will have a better chance.  Bonded becomes less important in heavier bullets, a .45 that splits into two results in fragments that are still as heavy as a 9mm is to start with (although the shape, irregularity of surface, etc means they won't penetrate the same) and will resist deceleration easier.  The flip side of that coin is lighter calibers tend to recoil less, allowing you to send a second shot faster.  That's why I recommend the .38+P over .357 in a 2".  The extra fps don't result in much better terminal ballistics, but the faster followup shot can make a big difference in getting a second shot on target if the first fails to stop.

 

That's a longer explanation than I intended so:

 

TL;DR

 

Bonded ammunition is better than non-bonded, especially in lighter weight bullets.

Sometimes you'll have to shoot more than once to stop an attacker.  In broad generalities, plan for 1-3 shots, but realize that's a generalization and shoot until the threat stops.

[Drifter 851]

 

The three on the ground on the left are mine.  SAR-1 AK-47 clone, Marlin model 60 .22, and my M1903.

 

 

I have that exact same Marlin 60. My Mom got it for my dad as a anniversary gift back in the late 60's. That's been one of the most trouble free reliable target rifles I have ever owned.